Without getting into whether Star Trek: TOS was good or not, I'd argue that Sugar's point is not really accurate.

Lots consider Star Wars to be pretty average story telling at best, and after the original series there has certainly been enough ****ty star wars productions that most people realize the franchise itself is not exactly something that is constantly producing quality material.

I don't think the awful reception for these movies has all that much to do with how good the original trilogy was. They are just bad movies and are received that way. Certainly after the prequels if you had high expectations going into this you were being naive.

Those who saw episode 7 and said "Well they could make something amazing still, just wait for 8!" were being even more naive (Sorry, I love to rub that in).

Mediocre at best movies like Rogue One received lots of praise despite not being that good.

The vision of the original creator was much different by the time TNG was created. The vision was better, and more relatable to the modern audience.

With regard to the THREAD ABOUT STAR WARS, the original vision of Lucas was outstanding, but does not translate well to a modern snowflake audience. Rebooting the characters of Luke, Han, and Leia is super easy to screw up, which is why Lucas would not do it. Now DisneyWars has no vision (surprise there is no MacGuffin) but contains all the correct diatribe to appeal to snowflakes.

Well this at least explains why you appear like a cult-like zealot on this matter.

Star Wars is of course a generic Hero's Journey. No doubt about that at all. Now you could call the use of tropes lazy or average or bad, but most of them (and most certainly this is true for the Hero's Journey) they have absolutely stood the test of time, being thousands of years old.

So now it becomes a matter of execution. Star Wars is a masterpiece in the execution of the Hero's Journey, and I'll stand firm on my opinion that this can be objectively stated. Plinkett does an awesome job in his Ep01 review explaining why the OT is objectively good.

Yes, all non-OT SW films are bad all on their own merits, alright. Having that uphill battle against the awesomeness that was the OT didn't help, though.

Again you ignore what came after TSO. In this case four very successful motion pictures.



The opposite of a "insignifcant show, that no one liked and had no cultural traction" can still be bad.

The Series Originale?

Could you guys imagine Chewbacca on a Star Trek episode? That would be so great. It's too bad they never tried it, might have saved that franchise.

Do you work for Disney? JJ is that you?

I am a huge star wars fanboi. I love the OT, and I love the universe. I think itt I wrote about how Lucas is largely underrated because he was the first to figure out how to package those tropes in an easy to view sci fi form (by basically making it high fantasy as you mentioned). I think the OT is fantastic and everyone should watch it.

But still, a lot of people think it is very formulaic and not that impressive as far as storytelling goes; it is just a space opera with magic wizards and lazor swords.

More importantly though is that the OT was been followed by absolute crap for the most part. I do not think the reason people dislike these movies so much is because they had unrealistic expectations. I think if anything it is the other way around: the prequels set expectations so low that even something as mediocre as Rogue One is called as a great movie.

These movies are so ill received because they are ****ty movies, and not because of unrealistic expectations that they will be as good as the OT.

Yeah, we agree on the main points.

People ITT recommended R1 to me. I made it halfway through before turning it off. Maybe I'll try again some time, but I just couldn't make myself care for the girl or anyone else in it.

I guess the droid reminded me of the droid in KotOR.

So yeah, I cared a bout the droid a bit.

Yeah, I cared about the droid the most too.

You watched the wrong half. The first two acts are kind of dull, occasionally nonsensical and filled with characters we don't care about. The third act is maybe the solidest Star Wars content outside the OT.

Meh I didn't think the last third was that great... maybe in comparison to the rest of the movie.


As far as Star Wars content goes: Rebels is pretty fantastic imo, despite being a children's cartoon.

Alright, alright, you win. I'll finish it tonight.

Will probably have to start over, though. I remember ****all about it.

I thought the Mads Mikkelsen scenes (particularly in the second act) were really great, and I think the third act is very solid, basically what ChrisV said about that. The movie as a whole can definitely get no better than an "uneven" rating though imo, but I do think the high notes are good

Rouge One featured Vader kicking butt. Worth watching just for that. Plus the droid was awesome. I really felt like someone at Disney knew how to make a Star Wars movie. Nah, turns out they were just hampered in sucking because of canon.

Lot of mixed opinion on R1. I personally thought it was very solid and entertaining while obviously not perfect, I understand the criticisms. Yeah the characters are all kinda generic "placeholder" types, but I feel like main storyline SW characters often aren't much more than this.

I just thought it was a relatively clever lead-up to ANH with a fair amount of nostalgia (bit characters and the obvious one major one reappearing, aping the "old" technology and look, etc.) that was mostly pretty fun. People talked about how the prequels faced such an uphill battle and were doomed to fail because everyone knew the fate of Anakin and the Jedi; I thought this was an example of a movie that succeeded even though you knew pretty much exactly how it would end.

It all really depends on what you were looking for from the movie. Which is also what I keep in mind and try to hold my tongue when people defend TLJ, or the prequels, etc.

You'll like Rogue One if you don't care about characters. The amusing bit for me was when whatsherface, the main chick, makes a rousing speech to the Rebellion about how awesome Rebelling is, after 5 minutes earlier wanting no part of any of it. I'm pretty sure that was one of the reshoots, after focus groups they were probably like "wow, we need to do something to make our heroine less of an unlikeable *******".

I think it's a decent movie, redeemed by its third act. It's now the best non-OT Star Wars movie after TFA got ruined by TLJ.

Star Trek TOS had 79 episodes, maybe 10 of which were non-terrible

TNG (seasons 3+) was awesome and i can't really see how it would age poorly. I can see how kids wouldn't like it as it's a slow paced show about characters and ethics where modern stuff is all about drama, action, and stimulation. The TNG movies were all dog **** tho.

I just watched "The Bonding" (season 3) and i felt like it holds up just fine. The questions it explores (death, loss, whether we would choose to live in a fantasy with our lost loved ones vs face the cold reality that they are dead. Contrast this with TOS's disposable red shirts) are still thought provoking imo.

Well then you'd be pleasently surprised at the end cuz all the heroes die. It's rather satisfying.

Trying to isolate off the movie shows from the TV shows seems like a bad faith argument, and the idea that it only had cultural traction in the 80s due to the movies and not frequent sustained repeating of the TV show is a dud.

Maybe the opposite of X can be a bad show, but so far all the arguments for we think TOS is an objectively bad show can be simply reduced to "I dont like it".

If try and look at any measure that is not reducible to an individuals opinion, TOS would not appear to be objectively bad.

Keeping data physically separated from the network reduces the attack surface, brah. Immune from conventional hacking.

I mean give 'em a little bit of leeway in being able to create drama, ffs. When the central plot of a movie is broken like in TLJ, I'm all for criticizing it, but these movies are always gonna have stuff that doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. The flawlessly-planned rescue of Han from Jabba's Palace says hi.

This.

The re-edits, the prequels and the disney movies don't really exist.

I thought Rogue One was alright and I've yet to see Solo.

VI is pretty bad too fwiw. The Throne room stuff is great obviously but everything else is so terrible. A lot of it reminds me of the annoying parts of the later movies. For example, Luke's 'plan' to rescue Han is idiotic and makes no sense and everyone only survives by a miracle/enemy incompetence. Then you go to the Ewok planet for the awfuls...