Yeah, but it's lightsabers slicing off body parts, so they're cauterized. Much more family friendly. Like laser surgery almost.

This movie is not a 10, like how some critics are saying that it's better than Empire (WTF?), but it's also not a 1, like how some fans are saying that it's worse than Phantom Menace (WTF?).

To that end, I agree that there are plenty of storytelling and execution flaws. But some people are pointing out things that they think are logical failures or plot holes that don't make sense or contradict canon. There may be some, but for many of the things presented as evidence of such, the information explaining it is present in the movie, although perhaps not executed or explained the best.

The above is a generalization that can be applied to many other posts itt and elsewhere. With regards to Fly's post, if you are just saying that these are storytelling and execution flaws, then I agree. If you are saying that most of these present plot holes or logical failure, then I disagree.

The audience knows Poe's/Finn's plan. We are supposed to be rooting for its success and disheartened at its failure. Then we find out that the Resistance leadership has a better plan (that would have succeeded if not for Poe).

It's a twist that makes Poe's/Finn's plan unnecessary, and now we are supposed to root for the new plan. You can view the twist as bad storytelling, or as an unexpected spin on a conventional storyline.

Right, one of the central themes of the movie is failure.

It does matter, and leads to a different ending point than most movies. The Resistance has been decimated, and only a tiny remnant escaped. The FO has obliterated them, and the Resistance has failed for now.

If nothing mattered, then despite Finn/Rose/Poe failing, the Resistance cruiser would escape, and they would all be alive and in a better position to continue Resisting. Instead, almost the opposite happened.

Right, the entire new bridge was in on the plan. All of the higher ups were (which might have included Poe if he hadn't been demoted). Dern wasn't being weird, she told everyone who needed to know, and didn't tell the people who didn't need to know (and shouldn't know, as they might inadvertently let something slip, which is exactly what Poe did).

So your quibble is that she told Poe that they had hope, instead of telling him he isn't cleared so STFU? That's a good reason for him to take matters into his own hands and mutiny? That's a good reason for him to never even mention his and Finn's secret new plan, to his commanding officers?

Standard trope where she's gonna sacrifice herself for the good of the others, and Leia initially doesn't want her to, but reluctantly lets her.

Could they have written it, where Holdo stays behind and Leia nods at her sadly and knowingly? Sure, but no biggie imo. That's not the part I'm gonna take issue with, compared to the bloat of the entire Finn subplot.

That's the whole point. That type of stuff happens in some movies. It's a nod and a wink and misdirection, and then gives a grown-up answer of what would happen.

They make it clear that Finn can escape in them. They even have someone guarding the pods so that deserters can't go off and escape in them. You don't need Rose to say "You picked an escape pod with a working hyperdrive, that seems suspicious..." It's clear that the audience is supposed to realize that he can escape in it.

Fair point.

Fair point, and I agree that they never needed to say 18 hours, just have it be unspecified. I'm just saying that it can be explained and is not impossible, and doesn't have to change the way hyperspace travel works.

I've brought this up numerous times but no one has really said anything. In episodes 5 and 6, Yoda is constantly telling Luke to use the force. Like, he hammers it over and over and over. Luke can't even get off the planet because he can't raise his ship out of the swamp. He says it's impossible and Yoda shows him the hard way that it is very possible.

Then in Episode 8, Luke uses the GOAT Jedi mind trick. A mind trick that Yoda couldn't even pull off. Luke's Jedi mind trick is so good that he makes himself appear younger so that Kylo Ren doesn't realize he's aged. Then on top of that, he tells Kylo Ren he's going to haunt him. So now, in Episode 9, Kylo Ren is going to have to deal w/ both Luke and Rey on a psychological level.

I'm gonna stop going point by point but man, no it doesn't. Laura Dern plays her character like a divorcee on Ambien, but Commander is lower than Vice Admiral in every ****ing military in the world, and it's bizarre that the big nose lady called a meeting to announce it.

You're right that the film ACTS like it's a wink and a nod to audience expectations, but that's because it was written by someone who thought "when an admiral dies the Navy probably holds meeting in a conference room where some lower ranking person announces the new Admiral."

That **** happens a lot in this, there's stuff that seems like it thinks it's winky and nodding but like, only an absolute moron would be surprised. The most groanworthy was where Snoke is bizarrely narrating step-by-step what Kylo Ren is doing. That's not even fooling children! That scene almost subverted the subversion it was so obvious.

(It's also a larger thematic problem that particular scene was a repeat of the Emperor's death from ROTJ. Which was the third film. Now there's no villain!)

Rogue One is legitimately good, but yeah, at some point America needs to have a conversation about how Star Wars has 2 great movies, 2 good movies, 1 OK movie, and 4 pieces of absolute garbage, and the three best ones all came out three decades ago. Its status as a tentpole franchise is not set in stone, it's still spending the credit it earned in 1983 but sooner or later the audience might start to do the math on how in the lifetime of a big chunk of the moviegoing public buying a ticket to a Star Wars movie has not been a tremendously wise gamble.

The RLM guys said basically exactly this. Like it's so obvious and dumb it must be a misdirect and he's really gonna go after Rey...right?

Wait, you mean the part where the dude starts off the scene in a comfy chair with the hero's lightsaber next to them, then later is in the middle of using his force powers to incapacitate the protagonist when his apprentice unexpectedly ****s him up? Nah not a repeat at all.

And that sometime might be coming shortly. After opening 12 million more in its opening weekend than Jurassic World, it's 4 million behind where that movie was after 8 days. And Jurassic World opened just on a regular week, people had to work and ****. I think it's pretty clear that bad word of mouth is effecting the box office. But they gave this Johnson guy three more SW pictures to make? Uh, OK, good luck with that.

I disagree. I don't consider myself a Star Wars nerd by any means. Hell I can't even name a character in Rouge 1 except for Vader and Leia. That said, any time I see a Star Wars movie on TV, I stop flipping the channels and watch it. And it doesn't matter which move it is. Star Wars is Star Wars.

Sometimes I think the Star Wars fanboys are the ones missing out on the whole ****ing point. It's like a football fan that saw SB42 refusing to watch the SB. Yea, ESB is the best. So what? The rest of the movies are pretty ****ing good too.

I finally saw it, slept a bit which actually made the movie weirdly not that bad since it s way too long overall with not enought good content to fill it.

I saw some good and i saw some meh, people pretending it s the worst movie ever are obviously hyperbolling hard.
Pretending that it s prequel bad is a nonsense, prequel had no redeeming quality, the decent archs were decided 20 years before, and i m fairly sure that was by producers and studio who managed to hold lucas on a leash when he was a nobody and would have most likely ruined it like he did with anything that required any creativity.

Now i feel JJ did a much better job starting the new chapter than johnson followed up, JJ wrote the characters and used them well, it was overall pretty shallow but never felt out of place, unlike TLJ where 2/3 of characters feel like fillers during the movie. if you remove finn and rose from the movie, you obviously make it better, Benicio del toro can be removed aswell with them, poe was watchable even if he should have been way better : actor and character deserved a better treatment.
Kylo and rey were ok, when kylo should be awesome, JJ made a great immature villain and they toned down the immature part too much imo even if i understand the need to make him evolve into a full grown villain for the end episode i still liked more the vador wannabe arch and it should have lasted untill the end of TLJ imo.

Luke was ok, the island stuff had no redeeming quality, the luke coming to save all part was good enough but i would still expect better from that kind of movie.

Overall a bad starwars film but a somewhat 5/10 movie overall, they need to find a better director for the last one, seriously disney step up you got someone in your stable who would make a killing : taika waititi, he proved himself turning thor into a great movie experience after 2 lackluster episodes and i m fairly sure he would transition so well into the star wars universe. And finally remove Kathleen Kennedy she has proven that she cannot handle the project at all,


I didnt like rogue one mostly because i didnt have any interest about the story they told, but it was obviously better made and thought than TLJ, too bad it s an obvious money grab : the first of many where people have to build a story in the star wars universe, i m looking forward movies that arent tied to the main story at all since hopefully they should allow more creativity without the need to do fan service and wink to original content at every turns possible.

This graph is a decent like-for-like summary. It will be interesting to see TLJ's staying power once the Xmas period is done.

From my own perspective I was thinking about seeing it on opening day as I did with TFA, but in the end passed as my gf wanted to see it at the weekend. At least part of that decision was the negative audience reaction, with the other deciding factor being my lukewarm appreciation of TFA.

I think it's that kind of decision making that has taken the shine off at the box office. If the audience reaction had matched the critics, I would have almost certainly seen it in advance of the trip with my gf.

Star wars is the DC universe of disney so far, i cannot wait to hate han solo movie when Ron ****ing Howard will prove why he should have retired after willow.

I get the feeling that this film isn't getting as many repeat viewings from the hardcore fans as the previous ones were.

The Han Solo film is super risky. I think much of the charm and charisma of Han Solo simply comes from Harrison Ford. Its gotta be super hard to portray that character without coming off as a cheap Harrison Ford knockoff.

Having said that Disney can still count on me seeing it once in theaters cause I'm a sucker.

Han Solo movie is a near lock to suck. Just a really bad idea to make it.

Han Solo by Quentin Tarantino
Han Solo by Ron Howard

I d be surprised if the first one wasn't great while I ll be surprised if the 2ns one don't suck.

I thought Rogue One would be mediocre and then when they swapped out directors and basically re-edit the whole movie, I thought it was doomed. But it turned out pretty good. And I assumed TLJ wouldn't be as bad as it was given how much confidence Disney has showed in Rian Johnson and he's been involved since like Day 1 when Disney bought Lucasfilm, and they never replaced him and gave him a new trilogy, and TFA (with faults) was good enough. Seemed hard to **** it up the way they have.

I agree the Han Solo movie looks like **** but SW has taken some unexpected turns where they miss on seemingly can't miss stuff and then get a decent movie out of something that looks hopeless.

One strange thing is -- why no trailer yet? Because they swapped out Lord/Miller with Ron Howard and it's still being edited? That was actually true of Rogue One where the marketing campaign and many of the shots and line in the trailer didn't even make it into the film; famously they cut Jyn Erso's "I thought this was a rebellion? I rebel!" which was marketed then cut from the final movie.

So why no trailer yet? Not even a teaser? It comes out in 5 months. It comes out like 3 weeks after Avengers. Disney already has trailers for their Nutcracker thing next December. Seems odd.

Yeah. I mean. I have a pretty good idea.

I've got a bad feeling about this.

I think I liked it more than most here, but all the complaints are definitely legit.

I think the thing that bugs me the most, but I'm going to have to just let go of, is Rey's mastery of the force with basically no training.

Many have brought up the fact that there are numerous other instances where a stronger jedi loses to a weaker one or has trouble in a spot where he shouldn't. But I can chalk up most of those to variance. For example in ROTS, I'd say that maybe Anakin was a 3:2 favorite over Obi-Wan, maybe a little more. So the fact that Obi Wan wins, is an upset, but not like inconceivable.

Same with Yoda vs Emperor, Anakin vs Dooku, etc. In each case if you were handicapping the duel, the dog should have a shot. And I don't really have to suspend my disbelief that in any given duel the less accomplished fighter could pull it out with a little luck.

In the case of Rey vs Kylo or Rey vs the guards (she should not be having about the same amount of difficulty as Kylo), it's just not stuff that some scrappy force-sensitive kid with no training should be able to pull off. I think Luke vs Vader in ROTJ was probably the next most lopsided one, but on that maybe Vader was conflicted or something and that helped Luke.

The make such a big deal that even Anakin, the most force sensitive being of all time needs training. Maybe Rey has orders of magnitude more midichlorians than Anakin. I guess that might explain it.

I always wonder in ROTS, if Anakin hadn't attempted that ill conceived move what would have happened? Obi-wan says is over, he has the high ground. Ok, what next?

So was del Toro's character officially killed off, or is the audience never shown if he lives or dies?
Could he have used the force to open that jail cell?
There's no way he just disappears from the story and has no role in 9 right?

That was one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Seriously felt like the director was trolling.

And btw to all of those who said "TFA makes perfect sense, just wait for the next movie to explain it all"

Is GoT chick officially killed off, or is her status "unknown" as well? She fell pretty deep and stuff was exploding on her way down, but we didn't see her die.

who cares? She is just a storm trooper with different colored armor

You're not wrong, I just like the actress from GoT and I'm sad she was wasted in both films.

That actually might be my personal biggest complaint with TLJ. During the press tour we saw a ton of actors and every actor/character was constantly being hyped, but in reality TLJ consists of a couple of key characters that generally do well (Kylo, Rey, Leia, Luke), a very limited number of memorable small characters and a huge bunch of unnecessary characters that suck up screen time for no reason.

That and (1) Leia being given 3 solid opportunities to die and still survive and (2) Asian chick saving Finn are the only things I really really dislike.