I went to the mall yesterday and finished my christmas shopping. Feeling good about having completed my shopping with a few bucks left over I decided I would buy something for myself.

I wander around looking for that something that catches my eye, that i just had to have. Two stores later and i find myself buying an expensive sweater. (relative to my net worth , leaving out the brand name so i do not sway the discussion)

I recently heard this song* and it got me thinking about how the seemingly simple choices (food, clothing etc.) we make daily affect others. Butterfly effect comes to mind, but maybe i'm misusing the term.

I was considering wearing the sweater today when i go out until i noticed the tag said "made in china". I don't want to seem ignorant/racist/whatever for thinking like this, but i also would not want to contribute to a huge corporation profiting from its poor workers in such a way.

Basically i imagine something like i heard in the song and im wondering how accurate the description is. I am obviously not naive enough to believe that one song is the deciding factor. I suppose i was just hoping to get some input.

Is it ignorant to think that all clothes coming from China are made in factories with poor conditions? How can i find out more about a specific companies method of manufacturing clothes? Having said all this, if you felt this way would you return the sweater or do more research? I realize this is more of an issue than just one sweater.

(disclaimer its a rap song)

*http://youtube.com/watch?v=q6yT3qSPtDg

If you were to stop buying anything from China or Taiwan or anywhere with cheap labor, you wouldn't buy a lot of things. Plus the things you were left to buy would be a whole lot more expensive.

But I do commend your effort in trying to find out more.

i don't think anything is worth buying unless someone's suffered for it, so sweatshop clothing and blood diamonds only

Yes.

I try to buy things produced locally but I don't make a big deal out of owning something potentially made in a sweatshop. But if you want to avoid things made in China because they might be made by a business with practices you don't support then by all means go ahead - just don't complain if the substitute you want to buy instead are several times more expensive.

If you don't buy it then you're forcing a little asian girl to starve, do it for the children.

you're an idiot who's been brainwashed by hippies.

Chinese workers are much, much, much richer (relative) now than they were ~15 years ago. Why? Because now they have work that pays (relatively) better because people all over the world buy their ****. Chinese labour is NOT that cheap (not as much as it used to be, and not as much as other countries). Chinese production != sweatshops... just the manufacturing sector that was in EU/US a few decades ago.

Also, I don't understand why people don't get that if there are so-called"sweatshops" it's because there are workers who are willing to work there. Why you ask? Because working there is better than not working there. AKA, thanks to the sweatshop, no matter how horrible it looks to people who think 10K/year is poverty, these workers are better off than before the sweatshop. RUBBISH you say? Then why the hell would they willingly work there if this wasn't the case? Accept the fact that no matter how badly paid someone is, if he accepts the job, it's better than the alternative.

Also, foreign companies operating in poor countries usually pay about twice as much as the local firms do. So much for exploitation.

This whole sweatshop thing is a trend started by people who want to sell you overpriced **** that is tagged made in USA.


EDIT: Child labour is not a problem in China. I don't know why people still assume that. Also, my post doesn't apply to slavery/forced labour/child labour/etc.

I'll try to say it in a less inflamatory manner, but: there is probably a reasonable argument for the claim that the people who work in sweat shops are better off than they would be without that job. The sad truth is that people in certain parts of the world are dealt some pretty bad cards.

This is all true, but someone can still object to the basic practice of shipping labour overseas for cost savings when they would rather buy something locally made. I may value a job to someone in my community more than providing a job to someone in China, regardless of whether or not the Chinese guy is better off than he otherwise would by. So long as I don't whine about he higher price of locally produced goods, you shouldn't have a problem with me supporting whatever business I want.

This is a valid argument for local-made goods. I think comparative advantage pretty much nullifies the advantage that one could see for the protectionist stance that this argument implies, but it is still sound.

It's not the argument used most often to bash sweatshop clothes though, I'm sure you'll agree. Most who avoid sweatshop clothes do it only to feel good about themselves (OMG I'm not exploiting kids, I'm such a great, humane person).

Correct - and some people see that as an opportunity to make money, and others see that as despicable.

One other thing that makes some hippies get their hemp panties in a knot is that we have relatively high standards for safety (for example) for local production, but then local employers ship their labour overseas to where those standards don't apply. If we buy products made by those labourers in relatively unsafe conditions, but demand safer conditions for local workers, we are implying that the Chinese workers don't deserve the same protections we afford our own workers. It seems to define two classes of humanity, which is a little unsettling.

already do

Can you please give examples of where this is true?

"Correct - and some people see that as an opportunity to make money, and others see that as despicable."


Yeah, and I think there is a pretty reasonable argument for this as well.



My main pet peeve w/ this whole issue is that when people say things like "corporations are evil money grubbers" they seem to overlook the pretty obvious fact that the reason that so many appear to fit that description is that many of the ones that didnt went out of business because people werent willing to pay what would keep them in business. (obv, Im sure there are many expections, but I mean it as a general rule).

Just found this on google. Thought he explained some things well. http://www.thenewstribune.com/busine...ry/206928.html

Also, for the wages comment, I'm pretty sure I read that in The Economist or from another reliable source. Can't dig it right now though, sorry.

no worries....I agreed with everything else you said but I just can't believe any rational firm would pay twice the wages.

Why not? We're talking about paying twice the wages to sell the goods back to North America. If they can make more money doing that than not doing that, why wouldn't they pay?

Probably. It might feel kind of odd. Of course if it were sweats, or maybe a sweater, then it would just add authenticity.

everything is made in China. if the clothing is made in the USA, it was probably made with Chinese equipment or packaged in Chinese plastic or made with parts shipped from China.

if they are working there willingly and are of the legal working age, i don't see any problem with it. if you stop buying the clothing what are they going to do when the factory fires them?

anyways, i am sure you can find some hippie American hand made clothing stores, but once you see the price is tripled you will go back to the china made store.

I tried to word my post in such a way i wouldnt come off like this.

Im not suggesting you were referring to me specifically. Although I have to ask would a person be wrong for trying be a "great, humane person"? I mean its not like im trying to become the next Gandhi, nor will i be eating out of the trash to reduce my eco-footprint, but i see nothing wrong with doing things because of someone's moral compass.

Is this what you meant by being "brain-washed" by hippies?


I tried google, but im not very good with the search... Was still curious if anyone knew how to get more reliable information on a specific companies factory?


Edited to address this:

This is what i am trying to find out. How do i know the conditions of where it was made. Also i am not sure how i would help them if they got fired, so i kinda see your point, still a lil confusing.

I know you aren't 100% serious with this comment, but im not trying to make this into an America vs China thread. I even left the price of the sweater out because i didn't think it was important to the discussion. Although the more i think about it, i suppose it does in a way that i am having trouble articulating.

The first part of your post about the label being slightly misleading is interesting. This is partly what i am trying to find out.

Just so. Make your sweater or starve. Easy choice. Same goes for child labor. Work those 8 yo fingers to the bone or starve.

You wanna feel better? Buy two sweaters.

of course i would wear something made in a sweatshop - I probably do.

Few points:
1) Here in Australia, the "don't buy chinese" mantra seems to have been hijacked by the same usual lefty types who are really just using it to preach their economic xenophobia.

2) It seems to me that the best way to increase wages of lowly-paid workers is to increase demand for the efforts of lowly-paid workers

3) The best way to achieve (2) is to buy stuff from east Asia

4) Thus, if you want to help poor people, you should buy Asian-made goods (or, even better, African-made goods)

jim, so i suppose youre opposed to the US labor laws which, among other things, dictate a minimum wage and safety standards?

because if a company can find people to work there under any conditions, it means it should be tolerated?

Don't buy Chinese is one step above Buy American to me. I don't care who makes the stuff I buy as long as I'm getting the best value for my money.