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Correct Lapka's english Correct Lapka's english

03-14-2018 , 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LektorAJ
That's a good counter-example that shows why "manner, place, time" is not the rule. It also shows why it causes problems to use the class "adverb" as a general dumping ground for anything that doesn't fit nicely into any other category.

I teach students the most natural sentence order is
1. Subject, 2 Verbs (with sub order of auxiliary verb, some adverbs, main verbs) 3 Object, 4 Other stuff, 5 Time

I also teach Slavic students and put the above on the walls of every classroom.

If you have multiple things in "other stuff" the sub-order is
a. Stuff without which the verb can't really stand alone.
b. Adverbs which modify the verb (I explain this as adverbs that answer the question "in what manner" - so "quickly", "carefully" go here, whereas "probably, often, usually" fit best in the middle of 2)
c. Prepositional phrases ordered by the extent of their relevance to the verb in the sense it's meant.


Consider the following:

I put it. (doesn't really work - the thing we need to add to make it work should go directly afterwards)
I put it in the sentence. (can stand alone)
I put it in the sentence without regard to order. (full sentence)

I watched football. I played football. (both can stand alone)
I played football with my brother in the park.
I watched football at Wembley with my brother.

(as a spectator the location is more relevant than the escort, whereas as a player the opposition is more relevant than the location)

By adverbs I primarily mean single words - in English they usually end in "ly" (but not adjectives derived from people like "friendly", "brotherly") or are alternatives to such words ("well" is an alternative to "badly", "often" is an alternative to "usually" or "occasionally", "hard" is an alternative to "softly" etc.)

They tend to take precedence over prepositional phrases, e.g.
"for anything that doesn't fit into any other category without problems." ("where" is most relevant to "fit")
but
"for anything that doesn't fit nicely into any other category. "

... sometimes to the extent of overtaking stuff in class a. ("put it in the oven carefully" and "put it carefully in the oven" are both possible).

You can do google searches in quotes and look at the number of his to work out what is and isn't natural.

E.g.
"lived with him at home" 2 hits vs "lived at home with him" 327000 hits because "where" is most relevant to "live"
"played with him at home" 3 hits vs "played at home with him" 0 hits because "with whom" is most relevant to play.
I do this trick sometimes. Huge thanks for your contribution. If I could reduce number of mistakes at least a little bit, that would be sooooooo cool. Main thing is to focus for now. I certainly have to work some more with your post.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 11:51 AM
“... and I do the search work myself.”
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 12:53 PM
lapka, the complement and adjunct rule for order was exactly what I was trying to figure out

Regarding means/place/time order, I know that's a rule, but I'm not sure how helpful it is. For example, I'd say:

I'm walking to the store [place] as quickly as I can [means].

I'd also say:

I'm walking to the store [place] right now [time] as quickly as I can [means]; but "I'm walking to the store as quickly as I can right now" is also okay.

I don't know if there is a rule that explains why the order can go place/time/means in the above example. I read that, with verbs involving movement we put place before means, but that rule wouldn't cover something like:

I'm watching TV in the living room [place] right now [time] with the volume turned up [means] so I didn't hear you.

Usually time does come last, but I can think of plenty of examples when it doesn't, or when it doesn't matter.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 12:55 PM
Lapka,

and I do the search work myself

then maybe someone
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lapka
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Diablo
to start caring enough
I don't understand this one. According to this link
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/gra...ve-or-verb-ing
"start" is followed by to-infinitive
Both "to start to care" and "to start caring" are fine. The explanation in your link is incomplete. In continuous tenses, "start" is always followed by the infinitive. For example, in the continuous present:

I am starting to try to write more carefully. correct
I am starting trying to write more carefully. wrong

But in non-continuous tenses "start" can be followed by the infinitive or the gerund. For example in the simple present:

I start to read 2p2 as soon as I wake up. correct
I start reading 2p2 as soon as I wake up. correct

Last edited by gregorio; 03-14-2018 at 01:21 PM.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lapka
Dear Universum, please don't let me repeat any of those mistakes at least today.
Dear Lapka, please tell us you will never become shy about posting just because your English isn’t absolutely perfect.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace
That's why you need "the". If there were more than one you would use "a" unless there were additional descriptors that limited to just one.

I went to a bar last night.
I went to the bar on 5th Street last night.
Yep, or if it is understood by the reader which one is meant.

If there is genuinely only one of a thing in existence at all then it usually just has a proper noun (i.e. a name) which are mostly without "the". Like "Yorkshire", "Google" or "Lapka".

There are multiple internets (networks made up of smaller LAN and WAN networks connected together), for example the North Korean one, the ROW one etc. but if you think the other person is going to know which internet you mean you use "the". People not understanding this was the cause of the past incorrect convention of capitalizing the "I" in internet in spell checkers and newspapers as if it was the name of a specific thing.

One thing I do with beginners is practice getting them to ask/answer
"What colour is this/that ______?" as they point to stuff in the room. Then I get them to fold their arms and we practice "What colour is the _______?" which of course is only answerable if person asking has correctly used "the" on the assumption the other person knows which door, board, window is meant. The next step is to practice "What colour is a _______?" which only works where the thing has a typical or expected colour like "a banana", "a 20-euro banknote" etc. and the answer would be the same for some random instance (i.e. they can't ask "What colour is a table?").

Re: "start + to" or "start + ing". What rules native speakers are using is not something that AFAIK has been pinned down properly apart from what gregorio says about continuous tenses. If we look at google hits we can compare
"started to work" 159M vs "started working" 21M
"started to live" 18M vs "started living" 533K (so much heavier domination than in the previous case)
"started to cry" 6.5M vs "started crying" 7.6M so the "ing" form is slightly more common with this one.

and I've very occasionally observed new teachers sometimes correcting students when they say the "wrong" version for a situation.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 02:13 PM
For native speakers it’s english, for row it’s engrish
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LektorAJ
If there is genuinely only one of a thing in existence at all then it usually just has a proper noun (i.e. a name) which are mostly without "the". Like "Yorkshire", "Google" or "Lapka".
It really seems this is a struggle for Eastern Europeans.

I went to a bar on 5th Street last night. (There is more than one bar on 5th Street.)
I went to the bar on 5th Street last night. (There is only one bar on 5th Street.)
I went to 5th Street Bar last night. (The name of the bar is "5th Street Bar".)
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 02:31 PM
Here is a list of verbs that are followed a gerund.

Here is a list of verbs that are followed by an infinitive.

Some verbs are on both lists, and some of them have the same meaning in each case, some have a different meaning in each case, and some can have either the same meaning or a different meaning depending on the context. That is not confusing at all.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace
It really seems this is a struggle for Eastern Europeans.

I went to a bar on 5th Street last night. (There is more than one bar on 5th Street.)
I went to the bar on 5th Street last night. (There is only one bar on 5th Street.)
I went to 5th Street Bar last night. (The name of the bar is "5th Street Bar".)


I went to a city in Khazakstan to avoid Howard last week.

I went to the capitol of Kazakhstan to escape Howard last week.

I went to Khazakstan to avoid Howard last week.

FYP
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 02:47 PM
I love to go to Khazakstan to avoid Howard.
I love going to Khazakstan to avoid Howard.

Both are correct.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 02:57 PM
greg,

Both may be correct, but the second one sounds much better.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Diablo
greg,

Both may be correct, but the second one sounds much better.
What do you mean? They both say, "to avoid Howard."
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 03:31 PM
The first structure "love to" "like to" "hate to" is used most often as the result of some kind of decision process but for other cases the "ing" form is much more frequent after those verbs (when we are talking about general likes, dislikes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorio
Here is a list of verbs that are followed a gerund.

Here is a list of verbs that are followed by an infinitive.

Some verbs are on both lists, and some of them have the same meaning in each case, some have a different meaning in each case, and some can have either the same meaning or a different meaning depending on the context. That is not confusing at all.
Yes but that doesn't give an explanation of why there would the radically different frequencies of "started + to" and "started + ing" depending what verb is next. It only offers that we would use "started to live" if we did not continue or complete the action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Treesong
I went to a city in Khazakstan to avoid Howard last week.

I went to the capitol of Kazakhstan to escape Howard last week.

I went to Khazakstan to avoid Howard last week.

FYP
All three are wrong. Congrats.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 04:02 PM
Lek,

I have very little appreciation for specific grammar rules, so these may well be wrong. Please explain! I intended them to demonstrate the proper use of articles — “a” when it is one among several options, “the” when it is only one option, and no article when it is a proper name.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 04:11 PM
It sounds better to put "last week" before "to avoid Howard", and you need "from" after "escape".
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
It sounds better to put "last week" before "to avoid Howard", and you need "from" after "escape".

I think there is a slight difference in meaning between the two options. Did lapka go to Khazakstan last week? Or was the escaping/avoiding done last week?

I’m fine with adding “from” but I don’t think it’s mandatory.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Treesong
I think there is a slight difference in meaning between the two options. Did lapka go to Khazakstan last week? Or was the escaping/avoiding done last week?

I’m fine with adding “from” but I don’t think it’s mandatory.
So your wording means she may have gone for the whole year just to avoid you for one week? Seems extreme...

Pretty sure I have never heard "escape" used in a similar context without "from".
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Treesong
Lek,

I have very little appreciation for specific grammar rules, so these may well be wrong. Please explain! I intended them to demonstrate the proper use of articles — “a” when it is one among several options, “the” when it is only one option, and no article when it is a proper name.
Just spelling "Kazakhstan" and "capital" city (a capitol building is usually called a parliament building when it's in another country).
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Treesong
I think there is a slight difference in meaning between the two options. Did lapka go to Khazakstan last week? Or was the escaping/avoiding done last week?

I’m fine with adding “from” but I don’t think it’s mandatory.
most boring 10K post ever?
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 08:36 PM
I went to a city in Kazakhstan to avoid Howard last week. [I'm trying to avoid Howard for any number of reasons.]

I went to a city in Kazakhstan to escape from Howard last week. [Howard has me captive in some way -- either physically or otherwise, either seriously or in jest -- and I'm trying to get away. Probably in jest. It's implied that I interact with Howard regularly in some way.]

I went to a city in Kazakhstan to escape Howard last week. [To me this sounds crisper and more poetic. "Howard" is positioned more as an abstract entity of pain (compare it to "escape the cold" or "escape my fears") and is less likely to be a physical captor. One must escape the tyranny of Howard!]
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 09:05 PM
I went to a city in Kazakhstan last week to avoid Howard. [Extra emphasis on why I went to Kazakhstan last week: to avoid Howard.]

I went to a city in Kazakhstan to avoid Howard last week. [The word "Howard" is still stressed. The ending sort of trails off here -- "last week" doesn't use its position at the end of the sentence as forcefully as "to avoid Howard" would. That gives "to avoid Howard" and "last week" more equal roles in the sentence. Less emphatic phrasing overall.]

Last week, I went to a city in Kazakhstan to avoid Howard. [Different rhythm. Emphasizes "last week" more.]
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 09:12 PM
Lapka: What do you read? One of the best ways to improve your feel for how to put words together in English is to read a lot in English. Slowly too. Speed-reading doesn't count.
Correct Lapka's english Quote
03-14-2018 , 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami
abstract entity of pain
Sounds like a good undertitle for Howard.
Correct Lapka's english Quote

      
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