It matters to have it that low if you're eventually bringing it up to pasteurization temps?

Can you not keep it cooking lower than optimal temps for a while or what? I bring it to 120 in my oven on the lowest setting possible, why is sous vide different?

Phresh,

What are you trying to accomplish?

I think the 2-3 hours part (at low temp) is what is especially dangerous.
The temp you would then cook the meat to, would not necessarily destroy all the toxins that bacteria can produce at those lower temps.

To clarify, even if you kill all the bacteria (which is easy enough to do) the toxins those bacteria made can still make you very sick.

For example:
Botulism (Latin, botulus, a sausage[1]) is a rare and potentially fatal illness caused by a toxin produced by the bacterium Clostridium botulinum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism
If you give the bacteria in the meat enough time to create botulism, you would need to cook the meat to 185 degrees to denature the toxins. You obv are not going to want to eat any steak that you cook to 185*

Love the chimney method. Nice!

I should clarify, I have no idea if 2-3 hours is enough time for botulism specifically to be produced in beef. Just an example to show how the bacteria/toxin relationship works.

It's not

120 is below the bacterial kill curve i.e. not pasteurized for most pathogens. Perfringens and staph will mess you up good even if there's not time or conditions for botulism outgrowth. Even at the low end of the kill curve about 126F you need significant time to achieve pasteurization.

For food that is heated to serve in under 4 hours total it's not really an issue not to pasteurize it though.

El D,

More tender meat?

JIDC,

Does it matter how long I have the meat at 135 for as long as it gets there?

Do you guys mainly throw your meat in the optimal end temperature at once and just hold it there for a while? I thought you slowly brought it up in a timeframe that doesn't allow bacteria to thrive?

Nope, i think you have the wrong idea fundamentally about sous vide. You set your temp to what you want the internal temp of the meat to be, then you never touch it again until you're removing it. I don't think i've ever changed the cooking temp midway through.

Phresh you need a quick lesson on what we do when we sous vide and why we do it. I for one volunteer for this.

I've never seen a sous vide recipe that wasn't just a single temperature. "Cooking" it at anything below the target temperature (assuming you're going for rare/medium rare) is just going to result in faster bacterial growth with no benefit afaik. For steaks you really just want to get it to temperature and then sear. For longer cooking times (short ribs etc) you want to make sure you're at a safe temperature so you're killing rather than growing bacteria (the cutoff seems to be somewhere in the high 120s depending on who you ask).

Definitely. Google for Douglas Baldwins research about sous vide food safety. Or wait for Gobbo to write the primer it sounds like he's going to write.

But understand that pasteurization is a factor of time and temp not just temp. Higher temps require a shorter time. Pasteurization is achieved in seconds at 165F but takes something like over 15 minutes of holding a core temperature at 135 degrees.

And core temp is the last part of the meat to reach the water temp; it's a factor of the type of meat and how thick it is.

Another thing on the topic of pasteurization is that it's only necessary for long cooks or if you plan to cook and hold for service or cook-chill-reheat.

It's perfectly safe for most people's immune systems to cook food to unpasteurized temperatures such as fish at 113F or steak at rare temperatures like 120. You just have to cook and serve right away and the cook time has to be under about four hours.

Sounds like the verdict is sous vide is a good thing, and if you're getting a commercial unit, Anova (which looked like the right choice to me) is popular and those who have one are pleased. I think we'll probably be buying one soon; thanks for the advice, all who answered.

Okay, sorry, I thought you guys slowly raised the temperature to the optimal temp. So straight away into 120F and holding is ideal? I'll just go read about sous vide soon since I can just Google this ****.

I know pasteurizing requires holding, I just didn't know the threshold to kill bacteria on our steaks was such a high temperature for so long.

Yeah, you want to get what you're cooking to your desired temperature as quickly as possible all the way through without going over. Then for tougher cuts you want to leave it there to break down connective tissue. How long depends on the cut, the temperature, and what you're aiming for. It can be anywhere from a couple hours to several days.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/chefsteps/s...eReference.pdf

You don't want to hold at 120F - it's too cold for pasteurization. If you want a steak at 120F the optimal way with regards to safety is to get it to that temperature (~45-90 mins depending on thickness) and then immediately sear away the stuff that can make you sick. Presearing also increases safety and helps develop a better crust.

Awesome thread. I'm allergic to almost everything except beef. This thread is a heaven sent.

Can anyone come up with beef based sides? Seriously.

if you poach meat/chicken to eat you have to put it into hot water as it otherwise will lose a lot of flavor. that's why you start with cold water when cooking soups/stocks.

lol good one

That's one hell of a rare allergy.

Bacteria growth occurs between something like 40F and 130F and abruptly stops at 130F. At that point it doesn't grow basically at all but the bacteria that's there still exists because it isn't enough to kill it. If you hold it at 130 for 4 hours or so it'll kill the bacteria, but if you are just cooking a steak then there's no reason to hold it for 4 hours or longer.

There are two kinds of meat that we cook at different times for different reasons. Tender cuts of steak like ribeye, filet, strips, have very little connective tissue and are tender by nature. So we cook them very little. Longer cook time does nothing for them.

You made mention of "cook longer = more tender." Not really true for the meat you are cooking. The reason you think that is because the other big category of meat is the kind of meat with lots of connective tissue. Brisket, pork shoulder, ribs, etc. The meat itself is going to be fairly tough no matter what. You can't cook it as a steak though because the connective tissue is almost impossible to chew through. Like the worst pieces of gristle in a bad cut of steak you've had. That stuff is made of collagen. Collagen + heat + time = gelatin. Gelatin is soft and breaks down extremely easily, so that tough piece of meat becomes super tender because there's nothing holding it together.

Sous vide is about trying to get the meat you're cooking to the exact temperature you want and never going above it. But because of the way bacteria works you want to get it there as quickly as possible so it spend as little time as you can outside of the bacteria growth zone. For short cooks, it's fine having it in the 'bacteria doesn't grow, doesn't die' zone. For long cooks, you need to have it higher in the actual pasteurization zone. But no matter what, you don't want to be holding it at 120F for very long because that's where bacteria thrives.

If you're ever cooking a huge piece of meat sous vide, it's important that when you take it out and aren't using it right away you try to do the exact same thing and lower its temperature as quickly as possible. They recommend you do this with an ice bath. Put it in the ice water and swirl it around and keep it in there to lower it to 35 or 40 degrees ASAP so the bacteria doesn't keep growing like crazy during the few hours it will take for the fridge to bring it down to the right zone.

Beef tartare, beef carpaccio.

cashy,

Pretty sure the plastic will hold the flavor in even if Phresh puts them into cold water.