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Old 03-15-2019, 07:06 PM   #101
jjshabado
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

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Originally Posted by Marn View Post
What have we learned from these accidents? Isn't this an ongoing investigation?

Eventually we will learn something, I just don't think anything has changed yet, hence the grounding of the aircraft seems justified.


They released a directive to make pilots aware of a potentially fatal situation and the appropriate actions to take. Airlines became aware of the fact that a particular sensor needed to be working correctly for a plane to be airworthy. Of course things changed. Which is why your martingale comment was silly.

This idea that they don’t learn anything until the final report is also silly. It’s not like investigators keep all this information to themselves until the report is released. In lots of cases actions are taken to make planes safer long before a final cause is officially reported.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:26 PM   #102
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

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They released a directive to make pilots aware of a potentially fatal situation and the appropriate actions to take. Airlines became aware of the fact that a particular sensor needed to be working correctly for a plane to be airworthy. Of course things changed. Which is why your martingale comment was silly.

This idea that they don’t learn anything until the final report is also silly. It’s not like investigators keep all this information to themselves until the report is released. In lots of cases actions are taken to make planes safer long before a final cause is officially reported.
You don't actually know for sure what is causing this, if similar advice or reassurance was given after the Comet crashes, the actual probability would have been exponentially higher for additional flying hours with that aircraft.

A similarly cumalitive fault is possible but unlikely in this case, it still has to be considered in our risk calculations.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:02 PM   #103
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

You keep moving the goal posts.
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:10 PM   #104
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

Letting corporations regulate themselves is bad.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:54 AM   #105
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

Similar story. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...workers-warned

Now...
Prosecutors, Transportation Department Scrutinize Development of Boeing’s 737 MAX



https://www.wsj.com/articles/faas-73...ed-11552868400
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:30 PM   #106
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

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Similar story. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...workers-warned

Now...
Prosecutors, Transportation Department Scrutinize Development of Boeing’s 737 MAX



https://www.wsj.com/articles/faas-73...ed-11552868400
I would not underestimate the seriousness of this problem for both Boeing and the FAA. As mentioned previously, the 737 Max has now killed an awful lot more people than the Comet 1, apparently for technical reasons inherent to the aircraft (and not, for instance, weather or pilot error). In the case of the Comet crashes, neither de Havilland nor the Ministry of Aviation nor anyone else on Earth knew what was wrong before the Comet fleet was grounded. A Boeing engineer reputedly said, 'If if hadn't happened to de Havilland, it would have happened to us,' such was the novelty of pressurised jet flight. In the case of the second 737 Max disaster, it appears that the problem was in fact known, and yet the manufacturer and the authorities continued to allow the public to fly on a dangerous aircraft.

The liability is so great it's practically out of sight. So they'll do everything to try and get round it.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:09 PM   #107
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

Of course, I forgot to mention: the liability may not only be civil. And you know what the other sort is.
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:53 AM   #108
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness



The pilot's statement at the end rings a bit hollow as pilots did not make the decision to ground it.
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:32 AM   #109
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

Lion Air Flight 610 (the first 737 MAX 8 crash) had the same nose-dive error in the flight just prior to the fatal crash. Luckily there was an off-duty pilot who assisted the flight crew (who were struggling) in disabling the feature that causes the auto-correct. They landed safely and the plane was subsequently checked out and cleared to fly. Crashed 13 minutes later.

This is starting to look like it was a much bigger problem than pilots were aware of. Multiple occurrences of faulty sensor readings. It also looks like the pilot community wasn't thoroughly trained in deactivating the malfunctioning system.

Boeing is going to take a massive hit in reputation and probably money.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:13 PM   #110
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

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It is an interesting exercise in risk assessment. The current possibilities include (1) the second accident is completely unrelated to the first accident (2) the pilots or maintenance guys in Ethopia screwed up in the fix or training in how to respond to it or (3) there exists a yet undiagnosed flaw that could lead to crashes despite following the best current recommended practices. Obviously some countries believe that the downside of #3 is so high that they should ground the planes just in case that is what is going on. What percentage of risk justifies that decision? What if it is only 1% to be #3? At what level of risk would you take that action?
Grunching a bit to react to this theoretical question,

1% is WAY too high to be acceptable. Like unbelievably too high, not to mention the difficulty in assigning a reasonably accurate % above 0 to "We have no clue"

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Old 03-20-2019, 09:11 PM   #111
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

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It also looks like the pilot community wasn't thoroughly trained in deactivating the malfunctioning system.
From the article I linked to:

Quote:
Since MCAS was supposed to activate only in extreme circumstances far outside the normal flight envelope, Boeing decided that 737 pilots needed no extra training on the system — and indeed that they didn’t even need to know about it. It was not mentioned in their flight manuals.

That stance allowed the new jet to earn a common “type rating” with existing 737 models, allowing airlines to minimize training of pilots moving to the MAX.

Dennis Tajer, a spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association at American Airlines, said his training on moving from the old 737 NG model cockpit to the new 737 MAX consisted of little more than a one-hour session on an iPad, with no simulator training.

Minimizing MAX pilot transition training was an important cost saving for Boeing’s airline customers, a key selling point for the jet, which has racked up more than 5,000 orders.
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Old 03-21-2019, 12:17 AM   #112
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

Does anyone know what role simulators are playing right now, and how many are available with Boeing and outside of Boeing?

I am just assuming that right now Boeing has secured as many of the airlines 737 MAX configured simulators as possible and are running them 24/7.....?
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:10 AM   #113
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

Here's what I think.

The plane has a couple of sensors that can trigger an automated dive response. The system is needed because the plane is inherently prone to stalling because of outdated aerodynamics on an overengineered design.

Most of time these sensors work well and do not trigger the automated dive. Occasionally the sensors malfunction and trigger the automatic dive. The controls the pilots use to manually fly the plane (stick, pedals) cannot fly the plane once this is triggered. The automated dive program must be shut off before this control can be recovered. In the two crashes the pilots did not know about this. One of the planes that crashed had the same problem a day before but they happened to have a pilot as a passenger who knew how to kill the program.

Think about it this way. You have a car that has an automated braking system. You have sensors that will brake for you in the event of the sensors sensing an obstacle in front of you. Well supposed some kicked up mud covers the sensors. The sensors react by suddenly braking with out your input. Your gas and brake pedal don't work to counteract this. You come to a stop for no reason. If you are on a busy highway you hope there is not a Mack truck on your ass.

Now imagine, instead you are in a highway in the sky. No danger of being rear ended but of course you will crash as you have to be moving forward always to fly.
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:55 AM   #114
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

The problem is that once the pilot overrides the sensor the software resets and then reacts to the broken sensor again, and again, and again.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:27 AM   #115
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

It looks as though the 737 Max had 2 optional safety "extras" that might have helped:

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That software system takes readings from two vanelike devices called angle of attack sensors that determine how much the plane’s nose is pointing up or down relative to oncoming air. When MCAS detects that the plane is pointing up at a dangerous angle, it can automatically push down the nose of the plane in an effort to prevent the plane from stalling.

Boeing’s optional safety features, in part, could have helped the pilots detect any erroneous readings. One of the optional upgrades, the angle of attack indicator, displays the readings of the two sensors. The other, called a disagree light, is activated if those sensors are at odds with one another.

[...]

For Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers, the practice of charging to upgrade a standard plane can be lucrative. Top airlines around the world must pay handsomely to have the jets they order fitted with customized add-ons.

Sometimes these optional features involve aesthetics or comfort, like premium seating, fancy lighting or extra bathrooms. But other features involve communication, navigation or safety systems, and are more fundamental to the plane’s operations.

Many airlines, especially low-cost carriers like Indonesia’s Lion Air, have opted not to buy them — and regulators don’t require them.

Now, in the wake of the two deadly crashes involving the same jet model, Boeing will make one of those safety features standard as part of a fix to get the planes in the air again.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/b...es-charge.html

I get that cars also come with safety features that cost extra, but it seems strange that a purchase of this size and cost, that is used to fly commercial passengers, would not include any available safety features standard.

I am not sure if the disagree light would necessarily have helped because (afaik) we do not yet know if the 2 sensors were disagreeing with each other. It is possible they both had faulty readings due to a software problem.

I guess, also, there could be some degree of pilot error? (In other words pilots were at too steep of a nose angle on takeoff and that triggered a sensor reading of a potential stall?) I am not a pilot so I have zero idea if this could happen...just wondering if it is possible that the MCAS system actually triggered on as it was designed to do (in other words not a sensor error at all), but then a software glitch prevented the nose from going back up as designed?
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:36 AM   #116
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

Justice Department issues subpoenas in criminal investigation of Boeing

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US Justice Department prosecutors have issued multiple subpoenas as part of an investigation into Boeing's Federal Aviation Administration certification and marketing of 737 Max planes, sources briefed on the matter told CNN.

The criminal investigation, which is in its early stages, began after the October 2018 crash of a 737 Max aircraft operated by Lion Air in Indonesia, the sources said. Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao on Tuesday asked the agency's inspector general to investigate the Max certification.
And the Senate...

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Old 03-21-2019, 11:39 AM   #117
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

So, I know nothing about flying or the regulation of air travel. But how is it possible for safety features to be some kind of extra add-on expense on a ****ing plane?

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Old 03-21-2019, 01:35 PM   #118
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

something something less regulations something something free market
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:49 PM   #119
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

A safety feature being an upgrade does happen with other products...think driver assist braking in vehicles...but what is bizarre is the fact that the boeing safety feature is to assist trouble shooting a problem that they themselves created.

The analogy would be a vehicle manufacturer knowing that their car randomly accelerates, and the solve is to offer an optional upgraded braking feature.

People are agruing that the safety feature shouldnt be optional. I'd argue that the vehicle shouldn't randomly act outside of safe parameters by intentional design.

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Old 03-21-2019, 01:58 PM   #120
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

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Originally Posted by MagnumMike 357 View Post
This is starting to look like it was a much bigger problem than pilots were aware of. Multiple occurrences of faulty sensor readings. It also looks like the pilot community wasn't thoroughly trained in deactivating the malfunctioning system.
Obviously some of it was because the off-duty pilot knew how to switch it off.

Quote:
Boeing is going to take a massive hit in reputation and probably money.
Doesn't matter to the customers enough to buy Airbuses instead.
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:20 PM   #121
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

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Originally Posted by 57 On Red View Post
The Boeing 737 Max has just killed 346 passengers and crew in two accidents over about five months. The aircraft has a thrust rating and centre of gravity well outside the envelope that the airframe was designed for and the 'fix' is an automatic computerised pitch control which the pilots cannot affect or override regardless of the manual or autopilot mode selected. If the computer wants to pitch down (and pile the aircraft into the ground) for whatever reason, it'll pitch down, and there's nothing the pilot can do. And you know what computers are like.

This appears to be a bit of a problem.
I read an article this week (German Spiegel) that suggests the root cause for this was time-to-market. In short, as Airbus announced the A320neo, Boeing decided to do a renewed 737 instead of an entire new design as originally planned. For the large new fuel efficient engines to fit, they had to place them suboptimally from an aerodynamic perspective, which in turn caused the need for the new anti-stall software in the first place.

The second thing was that they set the Design Assurance Level of the new software module to B instead of A, which basically reduces the complexity of the safety procedures needed to certify the software.



Quote:
The number of objectives to be satisfied (some with independence) is determined by the software level A-E. The phrase "with independence" refers to a separation of responsibilities where the objectivity of the verification and validation processes is ensured by virtue of their "independence" from the software development team. For objectives that must be satisfied with independence, the person verifying the item (such as a requirement or source code) may not be the person who authored the item and this separation must be clearly documented.
The article also mentioned that some certification activities were done purely by Boeing personnel without FAA involvement, so setting the level to B might be connected to that (see the bolded). Tight deadlines probably didn't help either.
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:44 PM   #122
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

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Originally Posted by ElSapo View Post
So, I know nothing about flying or the regulation of air travel. But how is it possible for safety features to be some kind of extra add-on expense on a ****ing plane?

They used to all come with 1 angle of flight sensor. The add-ons that would have helped were 1) second angle sensor and 2) angle sensor mismatch light.
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:02 PM   #123
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

How expensive of an option are we talking?
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:20 PM   #124
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

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How expensive of an option are we talking?
Let me run it by my manager
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Old 03-22-2019, 02:52 PM   #125
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX Crashes and Airworthiness

IMO Lets stay on track and not go full politatard unless it directly relates to Boeing.


In other news,

Indonesian airline cancels $5 billion order for 49 Boeing 737 Max jets.
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