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05-01-2011 , 12:59 PM
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05-01-2011 , 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
You're entitled to your opinion but I disagree. IMHO a ticket is a license to attend an event, not your personal property. Imagine you're a band playing a show in a small venue and tickets at the door are $5. You've invited all your friends family etc. Now what if out of the blue a bunch of guys show up and buy all the tickets at the door and tell the people who came to see you that the show is sold out but they can buy tickets from them for $40?

You'd be cool with that?
its such a ridiculous scenario that its not really worth responding to, but i would have set aside tickets for family/friends.

when people arent paying 40 then they would lower the price. in your imaginary world are these guys just buying all the tickets then holding on to them at a loss just to screw people over?
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05-01-2011 , 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
You're entitled to your opinion but I disagree. IMHO a ticket is a license to attend an event, not your personal property. Imagine you're a band playing a show in a small venue and tickets at the door are $5. You've invited all your friends family etc. Now what if out of the blue a bunch of guys show up and buy all the tickets at the door and tell the people who came to see you that the show is sold out but they can buy tickets from them for $40?

You'd be cool with that?
I'm either happy that I sold out my show or I'm pissed that I undervalued my tickets.
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05-01-2011 , 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkgojackets
its such a ridiculous scenario that its not really worth responding to, but i would have set aside tickets for family/friends.

when people arent paying 40 then they would lower the price. in your imaginary world are these guys just buying all the tickets then holding on to them at a loss just to screw people over?
Are you serious? This is what happens. If a show goes onsale and it's popular, scalpers will buy all the seats they think they can resell at a higher price and then attempt to do so. Do you not agree with this? Obviously if no one buys them they will lower their asking price. Did I suggest otherwise?
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05-01-2011 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flow73
I'm either happy that I sold out my show or I'm pissed that I undervalued my tickets.
So in your opinion an artist has no right to decide at what price their tickets sell for?
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05-01-2011 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
Are you serious? This is what happens. If a show goes onsale and it's popular, scalpers will buy all the seats they think they can resell at a higher price and then attempt to do so. Do you not agree with this? Obviously if no one buys them they will lower their asking price. Did I suggest otherwise?
yes, you said that a bunch of random guys bought all the tickets to my 5 dollar show (which is apparently really popular) and set a ridiculously high price so that none of my friends could get in. who cares about the asking price when the actual price will always be the actual value of the ticket.
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05-01-2011 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneOut
I can't do anything with this. I surrender, you win.

What I can tell you is that a year or two ago I used to think exactly the way you did until I started reading and researching and learning a bit about the industry. I learned a lot of surprising things that have changed my views.
Maybe I'm not understanding what your saying or something.

The bottom line is it's the artist who is making the lion's share of the money from ticket sales. Everyone else just gets a small percentage or a set fee which is way lower than you think. Ticketmaster is not a retailer who buys a product at cost and then can sell them for whatever they can get. That's not how it works. The relationship is much more like a real estate agent.
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05-01-2011 , 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkgojackets
yes, you said that a bunch of random guys bought all the tickets to my 5 dollar show (which is apparently really popular) and set a ridiculously high price so that none of my friends could get in. who cares about the asking price when the actual price will always be the actual value of the ticket.
Well my friends and I certainly would especially seeing as it's my show.
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05-01-2011 , 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
Maybe I'm not understanding what your saying or something.

The bottom line is it's the artist who is making the lion's share of the money from ticket sales. Everyone else just gets a small percentage or a set fee which is way lower than you think. Ticketmaster is not a retailer who buys a product at cost and then can sell them for whatever they can get. That's not how it works. The relationship is much more like a real estate agent.
I'm saying TM and LN are not entirely different entities. Even if they'd like to say that the 2 are run separately. TM promotes the shows. They are always looking out for each other. No matter how you like to think about it, they definitely have much more of a stake in ticket sales than you think they do.

If TM were just some entity that collected the same amount of fees on every ticket sold, why else would they be so dead set on wiping out the secondary market when they actually own and operate re-sale sites? Answer: They are the promotors. A lot of the stuff that you'd like to blame on brokers is actually the doing of TM and it's subsidiaries. This is something I never realized until I educated myself. I always thought it was the "scalpers" screwing everyone too until recently.

EDIT to add: TM always has their (and LN's) best interests at heart, not the consumer. And when dynamic ticket pricing takes place, I'd much rather take my chances with the brokers than TM. Do you know that TM/LN profits more if they sell half the seats at higher prices than if they jam pack the place at normal prices? They don't care if there is a half empty stadium. Brokers on the other hand will do anything to sell their entire inventory.

Last edited by OneOut; 05-01-2011 at 02:07 PM.
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05-01-2011 , 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
Well my friends and I certainly would especially seeing as it's my show.
Do you think Bon Jovi has any problem getting his friends into sold out and super scalped shows at MSG? I get what you're trying to say, but it's a really bad example.

Even if we say that your example of a garage band fits, that means that I'm super popular, am about to make it big and my friends will be very happy for me cause I'm soon to be super rich and they're gonna expect me to pick up the tab a lot more often now. And they'll probably be getting the groupies that I don't want.
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05-01-2011 , 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneOut
I'm saying TM and LN are not entirely different entities. Even if they'd like to say that the 2 are run separately. TM promotes the shows. They are always looking out for each other. No matter how you like to think about it, they definitely have much more of a stake in ticket sales than you think they do.

EDIT to add: TM always has their (and LN's) best interests at heart, not the consumer. And when dynamic ticket pricing takes place, I'd much rather take my chances with the brokers than TM. Do you know that TM/LN profits more if they sell half the seats at higher prices than if they jam pack the place at normal prices? They don't care if there is a half empty stadium. Brokers on the other hand will do anything to sell their entire inventory.

If TM were just some entity that collected the same amount of fees on every ticket sold, why else would they be so dead set on wiping out the secondary market when they actually own and operate re-sale sites? Answer: They are the promotors. A lot of the stuff that you'd like to blame on brokers is actually the doing of TM and it's subsidiaries. This is something I never realized until I educated myself. I always thought it was the "scalpers" screwing everyone too until recently.
TM does not promote shows. Show me an advertisement or something where it says the show is brought to you by TM. You won't find one.

Also your edit is false at well. TM makes more money if every show in the house is sold and so does LN as there are ancillary sales like hot dogs, beer, parking, etc.

Yes TM makes money for sales on Tickets Now but they don't sell tickets on Ticketsnow anymore than ebay sold me that book I just bought.
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05-01-2011 , 02:19 PM
Look we can keep going on and on but it comes down to this; either you believe that the artist has the right to control what price their tickets sell for or you don't.

It's as simple as that.

Ticketmaster does not control anything. They are just giving options to the artists on how they want their tickets sold. It's the artists decision on whether they sell the tickets at set prices or use dynamic pricing and it's the artists decision on whether a show is paperless or not.
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05-01-2011 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
TM does not promote shows. Show me an advertisement or something where it says the show is brought to you by TM. You won't find one.

Also your edit is false at well. TM makes more money if every show in the house is sold and so does LN as there are ancillary sales like hot dogs, beer, parking, etc.

Yes TM makes money for sales on Tickets Now but they don't sell tickets on Ticketsnow anymore than ebay sold me that book I just bought.
TM/LN is not looking to phase out the secondary market to benefit consumers, they are looking to mimic them. You're in better hands with the brokers. The system is never going to get better for you, it's just who get the money, and probably more of it when TM/LN gets their way.

So now TM doesn't promote the shows and has nothing to do with it, but they get the money from the vendors instead?

You're right, TM doesn't make money from TN sales anymore (I'd hope) because they got in ****load of trouble for it.

PS - Are you employed by TM by any chance?

You can blame the US government for this entire debate too. This is what happens when I can't play poker and have too much time on my hands while watching baseball all day.
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05-01-2011 , 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneOut
TM/LN is not looking to phase out the secondary market to benefit consumers, they are looking to mimic them. You're in better hands with the brokers. The system is never going to get better for you, it's just who get the money, and probably more of it when TM/LN gets their way.

So now TM doesn't promote the shows and has nothing to do with it, but they get the money from the vendors instead?

You're right, TM doesn't make money from TN sales anymore (I'd hope) because they got in ****load of trouble for it.

PS - Are you employed by TM by any chance?

You can blame the US government for this entire debate too. This is what happens when I can't play poker and have too much time on my hands while watching baseball all day.
So let's say they do mimic them. At least that way it's the artist who is getting the money and not some scalper.

Yes TM does not promote shows and I said LN gets money from vendors at their venues.

Of course TM gets money from TN sales just like ebay gets money from ebay sales.

No I don't work for TM I just am tired of half truths and outright falsehoods about how this all works and especially sickened by ticket brokers trying to stop efforts to curb them in the guise of defending consumers.
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05-01-2011 , 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
http://www.ticketnews.com/features/G...goats031104675

Quote:
In response to the sold out MSG show, LCD Soundsystem added four shows at New York's Terminal 5—the exact thing they should have done in the first place had they really wanted to stop ticket reselling.

The fact that they were able to book four shows at a popular venue in New York is one of the reasons Richard Kastelein thinks it was the band, not ticket resellers, who were responsible for the ticket famine.


"Terminal 5 is always busy, four to six nights a week, every week. Strange that it is dark for 12 days straight. It's NEVER dark for that long, so it's safe to assume Terminal 5 dates were part of this dog and pony show all along with the secondary market as the scapegoat to enable this miraculous offer to fans? StubHub saw no appreciable increase in supply after the public sale," explained Kastelein in a euticketnews.com article.

Kastelein then asks what's more likely, ticket resellers conspiring to buy all of the LCD Soundsystem tickets and then not putting them up for sale or the band and promoter orchestrating a money grab and media blitz?

Those familiar with the ticket industry already know that most resellers are fans looking to sell tickets they can no longer use. The ticket resellers that do operate a business are hard-working, law abiding, mom-and-pop outfits that take huge risks and often resell tickets for a loss.

Ticket resellers make good scapegoats because they're not an organized group with a defined spokesperson. Blaming ticket resellers is like blaming left-handers or people born on a Tuesday. In other words, it's nearly impossible for them to fight back. It also doesn't help that the pejorative for ticket reseller is "scalper," a word that connotes both criminality and unscrupulousness.
http://www.authoritytickets.com/?p=258

Quote:
During his online rant, Murphy announced that his band was adding four shows, all before the April 2 MSG concert, at another venue in New York called Terminal 5. The alacrity at which these show were put together, and the fact that the popular venue was unscheduled for four consecutive nights led some pundits to wonder if the entire ordeal wasn’t orchestrated by Murphy and/or the promoter. After all, this controversy has introduced LCD Soundsystem—who has an ardent but small fan following—to more people than any of their albums or tours ever could.
Quote:
“Paperless tickets seem great for the band, but in fact they are very counter-intuitive for fans,” explains SeatGeek’s Ben Kessler. “People are so quick to rip “scalpers” for selling tickets at a profit, but don’t realize that a large majority of people selling tickets on the secondary market these days are people like you and me. Plus, over 40% of tickets on the secondary market are sold under face value!”
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05-01-2011 , 02:52 PM
what happened to OP?
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05-01-2011 , 03:04 PM
You do know that Ticketnews is owned by the National Association of Ticket Brokers right?
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05-01-2011 , 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
You do know that Ticketnews is owned by the National Association of Ticket Brokers right?
a guy who linked from THE BANDS WEBSITE is now calling out other links for being biased? like they are going to admit it was a marketing ploy and faking an outrage in order to put on more shows?
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05-01-2011 , 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
100% paperless with the ability to resell, but at face value only.

Agree or disagree?
I think my last paragraph made it clear I disagree. What happens to the seller who values unloading his tickets quickly rather than waiting for a buyer willing to pay face value? And what's to stop TM from marketing their unsold supply of tickets ahead of the tickets trying to sell on the secondary market? Clearly it would be more profitable to sell tickets that nobody holds yet ahead of facilitating the transfer of tickets between two other parties.

If your answer is "allow ticketholders to resell their tickets for less than face value but not more than" then TM is creating a situation where their unsold supply of tickets is always going to be the most expensive option. Nobody would buy directly from TM unless supply on the secondary market is exhausted. Unless TM is willing to give up their own profits for the benefit of the fans (and I don't believe this is the case), TM will be forced to raise the price of tickets. The biggest fans who want to purchase tickets as soon as they go on sale would have to pay artificially high prices buying from TM. As tickets become available for sale on the secondary market, you'll see a wider range of prices, anywhere from the inflated face value price to an actual fair market price. This looks familiar. This looks exactly like the pricing of the free market system available today. The people who most desire the tickets will pay a premium price for them. The people who prefer a cheaper price will wait and hope that a lower price become available in the secondary market. The only difference is you've replaced a large pool of competing scalpers with essentially a single scalper who's got the market cornered. Not only that, but this single scalper happens to own every ticket before they even go on sale, so while a fan today might be able to buy a face value ticket if they're quick enough, a fan in this new system wouldn't have that chance.

Since you seem more concerned with concerts I won't even talk much about sporting events which opens up a whole new can of worms. Most tickets are sold through season ticket packages with face value for each event being equal. When they're resold on the secondary market, preseason games will never sell for face value, and the big rivalry games are worth much more than their face value. That would create a mess with this "Only sell tickets at face value" rule.

So which part do you disagree with? Do you think those ticket prices for the Neil Young concerts I posted earlier are unfair? Do you disagree with my theory of how a market monopolized by a for-profit business would turn out? If you have a logical argument to present I'd be more than happy to consider it with an open mind, but it seems to me like your hatred of ticket scalpers just runs so deep that you're willfully blind to how the system actually works, to the point where you're just making up figures to support your position.
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05-01-2011 , 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
You do know that Ticketnews is owned by the National Association of Ticket Brokers right?
Granted, but there are still 2 irrefutable facts:

1 - Brokers supposedly bought up all the tickets to these shows, but decided not to sell them? Again....
Quote:
StubHub saw no appreciable increase in supply after the public sale
2 -
Quote:
over 40% of tickets on the secondary market are sold under face value
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05-01-2011 , 03:17 PM
guncho is trolling this thread pretty well.
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05-01-2011 , 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guncho
So in your opinion an artist has no right to decide at what price their tickets sell for?
Of course they have the right to price their tickets as they see fit. If the tickets sold for $40 they should have set the price at $40.
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05-01-2011 , 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkgojackets
a guy who linked from THE BANDS WEBSITE is now calling out other links for being biased? like they are going to admit it was a marketing ploy and faking an outrage in order to put on more shows?
If you're more inclined to believe a group of ticket brokers over the band then we don't have much to discuss.
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05-01-2011 , 08:32 PM
Agreed, please just go back to your own fantasy world where bands get "screwed over" by "brokers" to the point that they generate a ton of publicity and just have to put on an additional four shows in a large venue that amazingly happened to not be booked that week.
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