Hey fsoyars, just PMed you about your spec. Thanks a bunch for the thread.

Question:
When a script's first draft is finished and handed over to the room, what exactly happens ? Do the other writers read it and then critique it and pitch ideas and jokes to make it better ? Do they start rewriting right away and then compare (partial) rewrites ?

Great thread, just read the whole thing. Glad I lurk OOT every long now and again still, .

I also have some questions for the OP as he's done an amazing job of staying involved and offering up useful opinions.

My sister graduated from college several years ago and wants to be a TV writer. She has had several jobs "in the industry" at more or less some level of administrative assistant at companies ranging from "we get really crappy movies distributed" to "we're involved (own the rights to) with creating TV shows" to "we make, including the writer of, high quality nonfiction TV shows for cable." Each position seems progressively better and more helpful on paper. But being an administrative assistant is not her ideal job (I'd imagine for most creative people it's essentially a logistical cluster F - she's ok but not great at it).

She is in writing groups, does find time to work on spec scripts/whatever, has some contacts but not sure they're super helpful.

I've looked at a couple of my sister's spec scripts and the original one seems very good to me (I'd be part of her target audience though), especially the dialogue and characterization (for the pilot at least). She's not a comedy writer, would likely work best on 1-hour shows that work in some humor (Firefly, Pushing Daisies - maybe this was 30 mins or technically a comedy, House, etc.)

My main questions are...

1) At what point should she throw in the towel? She just turned 28.

2) If she's actually good (she seems good at writing spec scripts, is smarter than me imo, and is doing one of the things she likely is "best" at), what is she *not doing* to get a position like writer's assistant or acquire game-changing friends (staff writers, agents, etc.)?

3) I have pretty much zero contacts to leverage for her (well I know one writer on the George Lopez show....somewhat). While I don't love networking, I have a strong background in selling creative ideas & work to clients so can certainly "sell" if I want to. Is there anything specific I can do to help her?

tl:dr: My sister is working on breaking into TV writing. I think she's good and would like to help - how best can I help?

Just watched Man Up! and I must say, I liked it! Definitely has potential and if you say the rest of the episodes are funnier, it should be good.

A couple things:

Great thread...just found it today. I only have a couple questions.

Do you feel that the writers are underpaid in relation to the actors? My layman's impression is that this is so, but I could be wrong.

I think I read that the actors on The Big Bang renegotiated from 60K/episode to 200K this year. Would the writers get a similar bump?

Do the actors, if they are actually paid say 10 times what the writers are paid, ever give the writers any type of "bonus" like 10k at Xmas?

Everyone reads it and makes their notes and pitches. Then everyone convenes and the script is rewritten by the entire room at once, in the room. The way it works is that there is an assistant at a computer and he is typing in the script and there are big monitors that all the writers look at. The showrunner leads the rewrite and his notes dictate the general course of the changes and the rest of the writers chime in and pitch with their thoughts/jokes/etc. This process could take anywhere from a day to a week, depending on the urgency.

1. I don't know it's different for everyone. I'll say 35.

2. The easiest way to become a writers assistant is to become a PA first. She's on the cusp, but still not too old for that. She should reach out to her contacts at the various companies she's worked at to get her an interview for a TV show.

3. I don't know what you could do bc I don't know anything about what you do. Just tell her to keep writing, keep trying to get her scripts into the right people's hands, keep reaching out to her contacts and keep her head up. She's far from too old to break in.

Thanks for watching. Glad you liked it. You'll be happy to know that the episode I wrote features a lot of Craig playing his guitar and singing douchey songs.

Sick first post! And now you've got me started on actors...

1. Hard to complain that writers are underpaid, but yes. Actors have the best job in the world, are ridiculously overpaid and most of them can barely show up to work on time, act like divas, don't know their lines and get to go home by 3:00. Also, it's one of very few jobs where you can pretty much show up to work drunk or on drugs and not get fired.

2. No.

3. Well, Terri Polo just gave us all those non-cancer-inducing water bottles that say Man Up! on them, so that's pretty awesome. But no, an actor would never give a writer a cash bonus. Usually just stuff like gift baskets or small gifts they give the entire crew. I have heard of people like Kelsey Grammer or Drew Carey or Ellen giving their crew all Macbooks or trips to Hawaii or cruises and what not. But that only happens on hugely successful shows with super rich and super nice stars.

see, I'm sure this gets really tedious from time to time, especially during the long sessions, but I'd kill to do this. aybe I just have the wrong impression of it, but that just seems so friggen fun to me.

Do you have a manager as well as an agent? and how much you paying them?

One more - you said you wrote an episode with a lot of singing. If I have no intention of writing lyrics, but want a band to perform in a script. Is just saying (obviously not this) "The band plays a rock ballad, soft at the start, but after a few bars they rock out and jump around like idiots." ok? I know you cant input actual songs because of the rights and everything. thanks.

Yeah, the rewrite sessions are fun. Getting stuck in one tough scene for a long time can be hell, but when the jokes are flying and the room is on a roll it's a blast. Also, the "room bits" and "room jokes," i.e. the twisted/funny tangents we get on that would never be appropriate for the show but just serve to amuse us, make it all worthwhile.

Yes, we have a manager. We pay him 10%. It's a lot since we also pay our agent 10% but I think they are both worth it.

Yes, that line you wrote sounds perfectly fine.

Thanks fsoyars, that's helpful advice and perspective, it's hard to know what's a "normal" time frame for being a TV writer from only being experienced with other industries.

I'll now "man up" and watch that show, , even though I haven't heard of it until now.

I quickly scanned the thread and didn't see this question, but the two posts above lead in to it: how does the writing change, if at all, once you've seen what the actors are/aren't capable of?

Or, how much discussion among writers is there of the actors' abilities and their on-screen chemistry, and how that would affect future scripts? How relevant is it to you, personally?

Yes, it changes. You write to their strengths and away from their weaknesses. If they excel at a certain type of joke, you give them more of that. If they have trouble with certain types, you don't give them those. If they are coming off cold, you don't write them angry. If they have trouble with speeches, you keep their lines shorter. Etc.

Of course, the good ones execute whatever you give them and hopefully bring something of their own to it. It sucks to accomodate the bad ones, but at the end of the day you just want the show to be as good as possible. Dan Fogler is a good example of someone who almost always nails the jokes we give him and often makes them even funnier in ways you weren't expecting.

There is constant discussion of actors' abilities and/or lack thereof in the writers room. It's a large part of the reason why actors are encouraged to stay away from the room. If anyone ever saw the scene in The Comeback where Lisa Kudrow's character surprises the writers late at night with cookies and walks in on one of them miming doing her as the rest laugh, this is pretty much dead on.

I don't know what you're asking. What I described above applies to almost every writer I've ever worked with including myself if that's what you mean.

Fsoyars, how much trouble is it to fit a script into the exact right amount of time? It seems like it would have to be very precise and probably hard to anticipate exactly how long it could take to act something out.

Awesome thread by the way, one of the most interesting I've read on here.

piggybacking a bit on the question above me.

ive written 2 pilots and each of them are about 38 pages. that seems long to me, but I've read plenty of tv scripts and they are all in the 35-40 range. They say one page = one minute, how the hell does that work out? Is that just in movies?

are your Man Up scripts in a 3 act or 4 act structure, and how long is the average script?

Every show has a different number of pages they prefer their scripts to be. A lot of variables probably determine that number and I don't know what they all are but I'd guess the biggest one is the editing process. Different showrunners edit in different ways.

When the script is read at the table before shooting starts, the script coordinator times it. They can pretty closely approximate how much time the script is over or under the target time (it's never under). Then the writers make cuts accordingly. It never has to be exact because it is always edited down to time during post production.

Assuming it's single camera, 38 pages is fine. Anywhere from 35-38 is fine. For whatever reason, I usually shoot for 37. The length of a spec pilot script isn't supposed to reflect a shooting draft (which would be more like low 30s, high 20s). It's okay to be longer than that, assuming that if it were shot it could be trimmed down and edited down to time in post.

Man Up scripts are three acts with a tag. Our shooting scripts are usually around 33 pages.

just occurred to me this will get archived. hope it's not too late.

Bump for great thread.

What's the difference between a bad writer, a mediocre writer, and a good writer?

Good question! Writers can generally be judged by their abilities in three categories:

1. Story breaking
2. Jokes pitching
3. Being pleasant to be around

Of course, the best writers excel at all three and the worst writers fail at all three. Here's a bit more detail:

A lot of writers fall into the mediocre category in that they are pleasant to be around but aren't exceedingly funny or good at story. They make minor contributions here and there but their overall impact on the finished product is minimal. These people are at worst a waste of the studio's money and a seat at the table that could be occupied by someone more talented. At best they are nice people who laugh at other people's jokes and don't do anything to impede the progress that the good writers in the room are making.

Bad writers, and there has been at least one in every room I've been in, are much, much worse. Bad writers actively hurt the show and their presence in the room makes the show worse. They are the kind of writers who are constantly bringing up problems with other people's solutions without having a solution of their own. "Hole pokers" they are called. They aren't intentionally derailing the room, but I think a lot of times they are aware that they can't keep up with the good writers in the room in terms of pitching jokes and breaking stories, so they overcompensate by hole-poking. They, incorrectly, think this makes them look better than if they were to just sit there silently.

Good writers excel at all three categories. I think that's pretty self-explanatory. Their joke pitches may range from hilarious to not-so-hilarious, but they pitch at a high volume with is good for the overall vibe of the room. They understand the mechanics of story breaking while also being flexible enough in their concepts of what makes a story that they are open minded to a variety of options. They are funny, good natured, laid back and low maintenance.

And then, the category you left out - great writers. Great writers do everything good writers do but they have that special ability to write from a unique, outside the box perspective. It's one thing to be able to pitch really funny jokes or story ideas, or see a problem in a story and have a great, easy fix for it. It's another to be able to do those things in a unique and specific voice that is all your own. These writers are few and far between. The best example of this is when I worked with Mitch Hurwitz. He did all the things really good writers do, but sometimes he would sit at the keyboard and start typing a scene and something completely hilarious and really unexpected would come out of him on the fly that no one but him ever would have written. And it was right in that Mitch Hurwitz voice that any fan of his knows and he made it look effortless. It was fun to watch.

are you on another staff now?

No. Most likely we're not going to staff this year and focus on development instead. We got what they call a "blind script deal" with NBC Studios. Basically we're going to develop a pilot with them. We have a couple offers to do a second blind deal with another studio in second position but haven't closed that yet. It's pretty hard to do these things and also staff at the same time.

What do you think about the show Happy Endings?

Big fan. Have friends who work on it. Hope it sticks around.

Have you ever worked on a show, or had friends who did, where they changed producers? As you might have guessed, I'm thinking of Community. If so, what was that experience like? How and how much do you think that will change the finished product?

No, I haven't. It doesn't happen very often. The closest thing would be I was on a show where the network wasn't happy with the showrunner so they brought on a couple other high-level writers who had been showrunners themselves to "help" her. But everyone acted professionally and got along fine and it was no big deal.

I suspect Community will be fairly different. Not to say it will be worse or better but when a guy who has as unique a voice as Dan Harmon leaves, it's bound to change a lot.