That's an interesting story. I think that as a passenger, if it is still safe, I would certainly prefer to continue to my destination, so if it really is safe to fly on 3 engines, I say good for BA. (Saves them money, and saves the passengers a major headache.)

made me think about the wi-fi question that keeps popping up:
http://lifehacker.com/5431117/codes-...holiday-season

How often (%) you don't get to your destination after you take off? I mean situations like gear/flaps problems, leaks, bad weather conditions at the destination, anything so you have to go back / divert to another airport.

In August 2009 there were 568,301 commercial flights. Of that number 1,454 were diverted (or about 0.2%). Of that number, only 96 failed to continue on to their scheduled destination. (source)

Was a jet but I cannot think of the type. Oil makes perfect sense and it lost A LOT. I had a front row seat and my eyes were glued to it the entire flight. Usually I pay attention to what kind of plane I was on, like when I enter a Boeing I always check its manufacture date on the doorway.
Would have been on October 5th or 6th, 2000. More than likely Northwest, DTW - LAS. Talked to my wife, she thinks they landed somewhere in Kansas, Topeka or Wichita. I'd be interested to find out what happened. She also ruined my thought of them going down the slides. Apparently they brought one of those stairways on the truck to the plane to deplane everyone.
Since it was the Las Vegas to Phoenix hop and it was on America West we assumed that since Phoenix was their hub that making it there would have some advantages. We thought at first that the thing just broke but after awhile we assumed that the captain shut the thing down. I suppose it's possible for a failing engine to break apart and cause all kinds of damage. This was in 1999 or early 2000. I went to Vegas several times in that period and I always took America West.

[hijack]
It wasn't that safe, they didn't have enough fuel to make it to their destination and had to make an emergency landing in another city, possibly wasting as much of the passengers time as they would have wasted if they returned to the point of origin
[/hijack]

It's got to be less than 1% of the time. I think I've had one divert since I've been at Delta (nine years) and that when we had a self-induced pressurization problem on a flight from LGA to Orlando; we diverted in to Atlanta. (Note: Delta has almost 6000 flights daily -- not considering NW flights -- and I guarantee that less than 1% of them divert.)

I also diverted on my last day as a Captain at ACA and 2 days before I started at Delta. It was October 28, 2000.

I was flying IAD-LGA and when we were cleared for the Expressway Visual approach to Runway 31 at LGA, the tower controller stated the winds: "Wind is zero four zero at two four gust three two". That's a direct right crosswind for landing and the crosswind limit for the CRJ was 26 knots. We have to take into account the gusts when considering limits, so this was not going to be a legal landing.

I might very well have been able to land without incident, but if anything went wrong (e.g. I run off the runway or scrape a wing) I would be crucified because investigators would hear the wind clearly stated right there on the tape. I had visions of showing up at Delta in two days and having to tell them that I now had a violation freshly issued by the FAA. ("Uh, crucifixion? Good. Out the door, line on the left, one cross each.")

I broke off the approach and contacted our dispatcher who didn't even hesitate to agree that I couldn't land on 31 (04/22 was closed; that would have solved everything) and we diverted to Newark where the company provided a bus for the passengers.

It might seem like a bit of a chickens*** move to make when you consider the inconvenience caused to the passengers, but you've got to keep in mind that we get no "atta-boys" for flaunting rules and getting away with it, yet we can lose our career if it goes bad. It's just a bad all-in move. (BTW, none of the passengers complained at all. I had kept them in the loop and explained the situation and why were diverting. They seemed comfortable with the fact that I didn't push it.)

[I should also state that there will be those days when lots of planes divert due to weather. This is most common in the summer when afternoon thunderstorms crop up unexpectedly in the Atlanta area and send a bunch of guys to their alternates.]

I should have read your post before replying to the above question. Thanks for the stat (and nice to see that my upper limit of 1% wasn't a horrible guess).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoXM...eature=related

I made (survived) the flight to TGU 3 times last year. Each time was very scary. Nothing like this though.

Did these guys have a pants full after this landing or what?

Know anyone who makes this run?

Here is another from the cockpit view. They need a new airport bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VBS-BWiWas

I just checked Delta's schedule and we fly a 737 in there out of Atlanta once daily 4 to 6 days a week depending on the time of year. I checked the airport information that Delta puts out to pilots and there were some interesting nuggets there:

• B737-700 only authorized
• Captain will conduct all approaches and landings.
• Operations prohibited at night, or when runway is reported wet by tower.
• TWR may not allow take-off or landings with aircraft on taxiway due to close proximity to runway.
• Airport is a non-radar environment. Be prepared to provide position and altitude reports.
• Due to mountainous terrain, do not accept/request off course clearances unless obstruction clearance is assured.
• Anti-skid, APU electrical, auto speed brakes, and all thrust reversers must be operative.
• Rwy 02 is the preferred runway due to Rwy 20 rejected landing performance issues.
• Tegucigalpa is pronounced “Tay goose e galpa”. Do not say “Ta goose” for short on the PA. It is offensive to the passengers. (<--- I love this one!)

WARNING
Airport located in a valley surrounded by mountainous terrain in all quadrants.
Terrain rises above 5000’ MSL within 5 NM of airport.
Terrain rises above 7500’ MSL within 11 NM of airport.

[my note: the airport elevation is 3,297 ft MSL; the runway is 6,109 ft long...shorter than DCA by over 800 feet!]

CAUTION
Large birds on and in the vicinity of the airport.
Expect extensive VFR traffic in the area.
Use extreme caution if a decision is made to make a non-normal landing. Consider diversion to a suitable alternate, if feasible.

ARRIVAL
Arrival Procedures
• Cross TALAG at 210 KTS and expect to cross at 10000’ MSL or 11000’ MSL
• Recommend maximum flap setting for landing.
• Autobrakes 3 or higher. Do not hesitate to use maximum autobrakes any time there are questionable winds.
• Do not attempt go-around once spoilers/reversers are activated.

Rwy 02 Anticipated EGPWS Warning
• EGPWS warnings are likely during turn to short final RWY 02. Do not inhibit.
• PM will announce descent rate with all EGPWS aural warnings.


There's some other, more esoteric, information on our "green pages" but you get the idea from the above; it's an airport that you want to be on your game for.

And now for something completely different:
(my own humble attempt at a spoof of Nicholson's speech in A Few Good Men)


Captain: “You want answers?”

Passenger: “I think we are entitled”

Captain: “You want ANSWERS?!”

Passenger: “I want the TRUTH!”

Captain: “YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

Captain (continuing): “Son, we live in a world that has airplanes, and those airplanes have to be flown by men with flight bags. Who's gonna fly it? You Mr. Stand-by? You, Mr. Non-rev? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for flight delays, and you curse the lack of leg room. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That flight delays, while irritating, probably add to my block time. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves cancellations. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in that plane, you need me in that plane. We use words like V1, rotate, true airspeed. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent slipping the surly bonds. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who boards and flies under the blanket of the very airmanship that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a Jepp manual, and fly the line. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

this is extremely unusual, right? given that the FO is meant to be equally qualified but less senior.

You are quite right, but this is one artifact of the "old days", but with at least one valid reason behind it. And that is, that the Captain requires a special checkout for this airport by a special check airman the first time he flies there. (Sao Paulo is another such airport.) The FO, on the other hand, requires no such checkout.

Thus, it's possible that any particular trip is the first one for the FO and that might be one reason for requiring the Captain to make the landing. But frankly, the overriding reason is probably just the old school mindset at Delta that the Captain is a superior airman.

Another example of this is that the Captain must be the flying pilot for any landing when the weather is less than Category I minimums.

[CAT I - ceiling 200 ft, visibility 1/2 mile or RVR* 1800 ft;
CAT II - ceiling 100 ft; RVR 1000 ft;
CAT III - ceiling 50 ft, RVR 600 ft]

*RVR - Runway Visual Range, a measure of horizontal visibility

what was this pilot thinking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYhrpA0tmBQ

Incredible! I've never seen an instance of a jet engine running like that after a ditching. The nose high attitude is what made it possible...if it had been level, the intake would have been ingesting water rather than air.

It really brought back memories to see Atlantic City in the background. That airport was Bader Field (AIY) which closed in September 2006. I built my multi-engine time by flying people there on the weekends back in the early 80s. I've actually walked to the casinos from that airport.

The longest runway there was 2,950 ft long so it was tight for a jet on a good day. This guy landed with a direct tailwind which made an overrun almost inevitable. (BTW, I checked the registration number...OY is a Denmark registration. Maybe it was Gus Hansen.)

Now who else was thinking that the camera would zoom to the cockpit window and Otto the auto pilot would salute, while that engine started to spool up.

are there many jewish pilots? black pilots? muslim pilots? older female pilots?

i'm sure you've met hundreds or probably thousands of pilots over your career...
what's the profile of the average major airline pilot?

also...when you go to school to be a pilot, what are some of the courses you take?

Thanks for all the good work you put into this amazing thread WOXOF. Here is link to a landing in Rarotonga, one of the Cook Islands in the South Pacific, about a 4 hour 30 min flight from Auckland. As you can see the runway extends to the road that runs around the island so the planes come in quite low so they can land as close to the end as possible. The first time you see this IRL you think the plane is going to crash into you. Quite a thrill standing on the sea wall as the plane passes overhead and a must see for visitors to Raro! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4UnRf0crKA

I fly into Raro a couple of times a year, usually on a B 777 200 er as the other Air New Zealand plane is an A320. I met an A320 Captain here and he informed me of the lack of confidence pilots have with this aircraft. My question though is as Raro's runway is relatively short, would the company have minimum fuel on board to help a short landing?( I think they stopped landing 747's here a few years ago due to concerns with takeoff weights. That 747 flight would go onto LAX). I was wondering that because if something went wrong it would be hard to divert to another airport because the nearest one is probably an hour or 2 away. How much fuel load can a full 777 land with?

Its also quite a scarry runway to take off from, knowing there is only the Pacific Ocean at the end of it! Night landings are freaky too as because you are out in the Pacific there are no lights to look at, not even from boats in the water, you just experience the plane losing altitude into the inky blackness until you touchdown. You really realise how much faith you have in the pilots on these dark landings.

luckily pilots at the front of the plane can see the runway.

on another note- is there any rhyme or reason to flight numbers? can you see DAL534 and know its direction or destination? Difference between 2 3 and 4 digit flight numbers?

Something that came up today during x-mas dinner; when flying from Europe to the USA, it is now mandatory for passengers to leave their suitcases open for customs to check. If you lock it, and customs wants to check, they will break open the suitcase.
Last time my mother flew to the USA (JFK in NY), customs opened her luggage. She only found out about this when she opened her suitcase on arrival, as it has a form on top of her personal stuff saying that the suitcase has been opened by customs.

Now, I am not the one to judge about how useful this can be, what worries me however is the vulnerability of it all. How many times do you hear on the PA that you should not leave your stuff unattended, that you need to pack your bags yourself etcetera.

As it is a fact that not only customs can open your suitcases when they aren't locked, I feel one is hugely vulnerable to potential problems. In fact, there is a case known here where luggage handlers got marked suitcases from other countries, and took them out of the luggage loop, taking care that these suitcases would conveniently end up in their own trunk. I guess you understand what was inside. In the end they got caught of course, and the mastermind got 8 years in prison I believe, but the whole feeling of leaving your suitcase with personal belongings unlocked...it just seems odd to me.

I realize that this is not directly a flying question, closely related though, and I wonder about your opinion on this, and if you maybe know more about this than the general public.

I love this thread and all but I actually work baggage for a predominant airline (best in the US imo) and can kinda answer the above (but don't want to step on W0's toes).

Your bags are relatively safe when they are brought below the fuselage. There is really no way to tell what bags carry what and post-9/11 there are camera's everywhere. i don't know how bags are checked from international airports but when they leave from the US I have decent knowledge. In that scenario (US-international bound), random flights are chosen by the TSA and they will screen the bags through x-ray trucks and determine if any given bag is a danger or illegal. I have seen TSA tear through bags filled with cheese and vegetables because that **** ain't allowed. The most common case, in my experience, of ramp workers going through bags are when they are 1) open so an iPod or camera are visible or 2) they are marked "Special Item," which in 99% of cases mean there is a firearm inside (they have to be disclosed) and in both cases (when crewmembers take those items) they have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Firing for personal items, jail time for weapons. Your bags are safe (if you consider throwing and severe mistreatment of luggage as safe).

Bottom line: your bags aren't getting stolen, just treated really poorly. I guess that didn't really answer that Q.

My Q for the pilot itt. Ever have some terrible interactions with the ground crew? I only encounter pilots on walk arounds (y'all seem nice) and giving them numbers (bin and fuels loads) but I can see some crewmembers, with seniority, giving the flight crew some guff to the point where it could become written. Any stories?

I had a quite frightening flight/landing experience as a kid,
flying with a MD-11 from Singapore to Abu Dhabi
(airline was Garuda Indonesia, flight as a whole was medan-frankfurt)

we had the worst turbulences I ever saw, when leaving India
to the west but whatever..

we "cruised" over abu dhabi for a (imo) unnormal long time
and when we landed, it was not only really rough,
there was also a loud sound from beneath
(my english is to bad to describe it, it was a deep voice
kinda like when metal slowly gets bend I guess)

then some kind of "calming" piano music kicked in, Im kidding you not,
it really freaked me out even back then as a child, is this standard?
dont wanna hear this **** if Im going to die!

at the airport we saw firefighters waiting (but nothing big like in the movies)
and had to wait for a unplanned long time before continuing the flight,
we heard from other passengers they changed the tires or brakes?

fwiw the pilot never told us anything and the start at singapore
was already unusually hard/fast, which was talked about by my parents and other passengers.

I have 3 questions:

how dangerous would you consider this situation?

is this calming music thing widely spread and in use today?

I definitely remember the floor of the plane
getting hot/warm but this is a feature Im not
100% sure of, after all I was a frightened kid
and there is so much space between the cabin floor and the
tires that there really shoud be no reason for it to get hot?

great thread!

edit:
oh, and when we took off from abu dhabi it was announced we would get a new crew,
everybody cheered and applauded

Outstanding job with this thread, WOXOF.

Any chance you might throw out some theories about what might have gone wrong with AA331's crash landing at KIN last week?

I posted some photos of the plane in this thread http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/34...ngston-665911/

Without wanting to de-rail the thread, a friend of mine used to be a flying instructor in New Zealand, and the place where he worked trained a lot of Garuda's pilots.

By all accounts (and this is a generalisation obviously) they were a bunch of lazy oafs who always just barely scraped by with a pass in any test/assessment they took part in. Garuda also have a horrible safety record, avoid flying on Garuda at all costs.

Though I've flown with pilots from every group you list above, the vast majority are white men and probably christian (though I don't know that for a fact...it's not like we talk religion in the cockpit).

I wish I could give you a better breakdown, but I'll bet it's somewhere out there on the web.

Preparation for the Private Pilot License is divided into two parts: ground school and flight training.

For ground school, here's a list of items covered in the syllabus:

Airplane systems
Aerodynamics
Airport environment
Charts
Airspace
Regulations
Meteorology
Sources of weather information
Aircraft performance
Navigation
Aviation physiology

In flight training will cover the following:

Preflight Inspection and Aircraft Servicing
Obtaining Weather information & Using Good Weather Judgment
Cockpit Familiarity and Required Paperwork
Proper Use of Checklists
Engine Start Procedures (Hot & Cold)
Taxi and Crosswind Taxi
Pre-Take-off Checks including Engine Run-Up
Normal Takeoff and Pattern Departure
Climbs, Descents, Turns, and Straight & Level Flight
Cruise Speed & Approach Configurations
Use of Elevator Trim
Steep Turns (45-60 degrees), including spiral recovery
Slow Flight with and without Flaps
Stalls – In straight and turning flight, in both clean and approach configurations, including spin-entry recovery
Simulated Emergency Landings
Ground Reference Maneuvers (including rectangular patterns, S-turns, and turns about a point)
Pattern Entry & Proper Landing Pattern Procedures
Stabilized approach technique
Flare & Touch-Down Techniques
Recovery from Bad Approach/Landing and Go-Around Procedures
FAR 91
Local Airport Rules & Practices
Comm Radio usage and communication phraseology
Transponder usage
VOR Navigation
Practice Area Familiarization
Flight By Instrument Reference (Climbs, Descents, Turns, Straight & Level)
Crosswind Take-off and Landing Techniques & Practice
Short Field & Soft-Field Take-off and landing Techniques & Practice
Slips to landings (No Flaps)
Accelerated Stall Demonstration
Night Takeoff & Landing Techniques
Night Airwork (including Additional Instrument Reference)
Controlled Field (Towered Airport) Practice
Dual Cross-Country Practice (Review of AIM & FAR, Pilotage, VOR NAV, & Dead-Reckoning Techniques)