At 1000' agl, is there time to recover from that in this situation?

This happens in helicopters too. Often enough that it's become a common practice to ignore the checklist and brief before the flight "if the helicopter is making enough power for flight and not on fire, leave it alone."

Just watched a Mayday episode of a flight in the UK that crashed because the pilots shut down the wrong engine.

Very recent ATR crash in Taiwan due to shutting down the wrong engine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransA...ays_Flight_235

Hey, been lurking this thread on and off. It is great stuff.

I flew for the very first time 2 weeks ago. I know that sounds kind of sad for someone my age, but whatever, at least I did it. Although I wasn't surprised I landed safely, I was still kind of amazed I did land safely. It wasn't like I expected it to be. I expected it to feel smooth, but it was kind of shaky, like being on a roller coaster. I didn't get a window seat, but I was able to see how the window just the same. I was on a 747 or whatever Southwest uses, which was pretty small.

I can totally see how you'd become passionate about flying. It is an incredible feeling to be certain, but I suppose part of it was the stress of doing it the first time, the feeling I was coming down with the bends, and my ears totally clogged. I guess I was pretty stoned feeling the whole time, so definitely not pilot material. Well... did you, and do you still, experience these sensations when you fly? How did you get past it, or how do you learn to live with it day in and day out?

When I was at the airport, I noticed that the planes had different kinds of wings. Some where flat and others were bent up. Why are there many designs and does the wing design affect how you fly?

Finally, I ran across this article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...ngle_page=true

I know you eschew these kinds of controversies, but I wanted to share it. If you have any thoughts on it, that would be interesting to read.

Southwest flies 737s. 747s are huge.
Comparison:



Welcome to air travel.

I got 2 out of 3 numbers correct.

I was kind of thinking these planes are older than I am, with faux leather seats. I don't mean this to be totally insulting to Southwest, but I felt like it was the greyhound of the skies. I'll definitely fly again.

As someone who has flown quite a bit I'm actually kind of jealous you got to experience it for the first time so recently, Dave. Must have been quite exciting.

They are, but that's what you're paying for. For short 60 to 90 minute hops within California or to Vegas, etc., you don't need a lot of bells and whistles. They are basically a form of commuting for people living in SoCal with frequent business in NorCal, and vice versa.

Heh - I also fly them cross country. The only airline without ticket change or baggage fees. Acceptable leg room as well.

It was. I was still thrilled the next day. When people asked how it was, I said things like "awesome" and "amazing!"

My seat mate was wondering why I looked so shell-shocked at lift-off, but he understood once I told him this was my first flight.

I didn't have any problems at security. I didn't get what all the fuss is about. Granted, I didn't make a scene at the microwave oven, but it was far easier than I expected. It was totally obvious I was completely clueless, so they were kind of amused.

It was a 3 hour flight from LAX to AUS, but it went pretty quick, but as I said, I was feeling quite stoned. I could barely keep a conversation going, and thinking was pretty hard.

Looks as though a flaperon from MH370 may have washed up on Réunion. Doesn't answer why, but if confirmed it would at least verify that the plane did go down in the Indian Ocean. Currents taking the debris from the search zones to Réunion are apparently feasible (it's a long time since I studied that kind of thing, but it looks legit).

I like you calling it lift-off. Feel like an astronaut?

(Apologies for taking so long to respond to these recent posts. I left for the beach and didn't take a laptop.)


Maybe, but I wouldn't want to be in this situation. Assuming the pilots immediately initiated a windmill start, there's a possibility the engines would spin up in time to produce thrust.

There was an instance many years ago on a 757, where the Captain mistakenly shut down both engines while climbing out from LAX.

Here's how it happened. During their climb, there was some kind of minor engine problem related to the 757's Electronic Engine Control (EEC) system. The Captain correctly deduced it was an EEC related problem and, without consulting a checklist, he went to turn off both of the EEC switches. At that time, those switches were located on the center pedestal, either just aft or just forward of the engine fuel switches. Well, he inadvertently flipped both fuel switches to the OFF position and the L-1011 became a glider.

The First Officer was on his game and immediately reached overhead and placed both engine start switches in the FLT position, brought both throttles to idle, and then put both fuel switches back to RUN. The engines re-lit and they were able to continue.

Note that while the engines were shut down, there was only emergency electrical power on the plane. It was apparent in back what was happening and, iirc from the stories I heard, the Captain even made a PA (or alerted the flight attendants) to the possibility of a ditching (the initial climb out of LAX is out over the ocean). Once the engines were running again, the Captain elected to continue on to their destination, with some passengers still wearing life vests. This decision was not looked upon favorably in the subsequent investigation.

As a result of this incident, the EEC switches were relocated to the overhead panel.

What was that flight's destination? I could see the captain deciding to continue if it's just a short flight I suppose.

I learned this lesson in my simulator training for the J-32. This was my first airline job and first time in a full motion simulator. We had an engine fire and shutdown the engine, performing all the steps from memory, i.e. no reference to a checklist. (Looking back, it's fuzzy to me if that was the correct procedure for that airline at that time, or if this was just a sim scenario the instructor had cooked up. Today, I don't think any airline's abnormal procedures result in shutting down an engine strictly from memory.)

So anyway, we've got the right engine shut down and we're now coming in for a visual approach to runway 19L at Dulles airport. While on base leg, the left engine fire light and bell goes off. We dutifully complied with our training for an engine fire and shut down the left engine. Now everything got real quiet and we both looked at each other and realized that maybe we should have just landed with a burning engine that was producing thrust.

We crashed short of the runway and the instructor's point was made.

Well, I don't know your age, but I'm glad you got to experience the sensation of soaring among the clouds. I was 12 years old when I first went on a plane and I was enthralled! I sometimes take someone up in a light airplane for their first flight and I like to have a nice calm day so that they don't have a bad first experience. If yours felt like a roller coaster, it might have been a little windy. Every once in a while, we get just perfect conditions for the approach and landing and it feels like you're riding the plane down to the runway on rails. In those conditions, I feel like I'm just walking the plane down to any particular spot I want.

If you were on Southwest flight, you were on a 737, which is significantly smaller than a 747. Southwest flies just one type of plane, which greatly reduces their training and maintenance costs.

I never had any issues with flying, but I've heard many stories of pilots (even some famous fighter pilots) who had to overcome airsickness to continue flying. Although I'm sure some people are just more physiologically prone to this reaction, I think a lot of it is mental. I know that when I've got someone up in a small plane and they're feeling queasy, I can let them take the controls and this will often cause them to forget their airsickness.

You're probably referring to the various styles of winglets. The newest design around is the "scimitar" winglet, which extends both up and down from the wingtip. Winglets reduce drag created by wingtips vortices and thus improve fuel efficiency.

When I flew the 757, we had a mixed bag in our fleet, with and without winglets. Some pilots say they notice a difference on landing because the 757s with winglets tended to float a little more during the roundout for landing.

As for wing design in general, aeronautical engineers deal in trade offs between performance and stabiity. The shape, size, thickness, and inclusion of auxiliary lift devices (e.g. leading and trailing edge flaps) all figure into that particular wing's performance and efficiency. From a pilot's point of view, it doesn't really affect how we fly, though it will determine things such as stall speeds and takeoff speeds.

I read the article, but I'm not really sure what the controversy is (and I'm not trying to be obtuse). Is it just civilians and military sharing the sky? As a GA pilot, we're all aware of Military Operations Areas (MOAs) and the risk inherent in transiting them. There are also OB routes, which are flown by high speed military aircraft, usually low level. iirc, OB stands for Olive Branch, the name the military gives to these routes. We always called them Oil Burner routes. A B-52 might fly at 400 kts just a couple of hundred feet above the ground on one of these routes.

Hey Woxof
Great thread. Thank you for keeping it going. As a passenger, what would you say is a more stellar experience, the 747-800 or the A380?
Thanks

I don't know that you could tell the difference. I've always been biased toward the 747. I just think it looks majestic, both in the air and on the ground. But the passenger experienced is largely determined by the interior configuration and service. The airlines that fly the 380 (which are all non-U.S.) are known for better service, at least anecdotally.

If you can afford First Class, try Emirates. They have state rooms, like on an ocean liner.

How often do pilots crash the simulator plane during recurrent training exercises? Is it acceptable to crash in the simulator for an experienced pilot?

It's rare but not unheard of. The last time I crashed the sim was many years ago during an extreme windshear scenario on short final. Even the sim instructors acknowledge that they can crank the windshear up to an unrecoverable level.

Crashing the sim is never acceptable but there are different levels of jeopardy in sim training. Some sessions are "maneuvers validation" where, time permitting, the instructor can train to proficiency and allow retries. If time runs out for that sim period, the session is unsatisfactory and more training is required. The next session is now a jeopardy event, i.e. your job is on the line. I'm sure it's happened, but I have no first hand knowledge of someone losing their job this way.

Other times, you are being graded and there's no way to fail quite as spectacularly as crashing. When you crash the sim, the visuals "spider web" and the sim locks its motion in an uncomfortable canted attitude. The only way to really fail an LOE (Line Oriented Evaluation, where a crew "flies" an entire flight from gate to gate, with something going wrong en route) is to crash the sim. Barring a crash (or going off the runway), the LOE will be graded and debriefed based on many criteria, the most important of which is CRM (crew resource management).

Why does a plane sometimes shudder heavily on take-off?

I was on a 747 the other day, and it shuddered so much I wondered whether it was going to get off the ground.



I know of close relatives of someone who was on that flight (if it's the British Midlands flight you're referring to).

Just reading an account from someone who was on the plane:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegworth_air_disaster

A classic chain of events, a malfunction followed by pilot error with disastrous results.

That is a very disturbing account and, given the situation (smoke in the cockpit), it's easy to see how they could make such a tragic mistake. One of my earliest sim instructors at ACA was a retired Air Force C-5 instructor. He had a great piece of advice that I've probably shared before itt: "If you're going to do something stupid, do it slowly." The point is, don't be in a hurry to touch things or move controls when you've got an emergency.

This probably won't happen, but one can dream: http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/4/909...hypersonic-jet