Thx again for your continued effort in providing us with interesting info on aviation.

How often do you have to intervene on passangers? I imagine most is handled by cabin crew but how do you share the responsibility and have you had any particulably memorable "experiences"?

I've never flown one of those polar routes, but it's my understanding that twin engine planes still have to comply with ETOPS rules. I'm pretty sure those 777s operate as ETOPS 180 flights (our 767-ERs going to Europe are ETOPS 120), meaning they must have a divert field within three hours flying time flying on one engine.

I'll have to see if I can get my hands on one of those flight plans and see what divert fields they list.

When the 767-400 first started being used out of New York, it had only one destination: London. But then it started taking over many destinations from the 767-ER (e.g. Moscow, Nice).

But for diversity of destinations, you are right. The ER category (which includes the 757) goes to many more places.

In the preflight brief with the crew, many Captains make a point of telling the flight attendants that he will back them up if they have any problems with passengers. This is rarely required and I've probably seen it, on average, less than once a year.

I've seen a passenger denied boarding a couple of times. One memorable one was in France and the passenger was a member of the Monaco royal family, who showed up for the flight drunk. That was probably 2008 or 2009 and I remember that the station personnel were pretty concerned when the Captain made the decision that this passenger wasn't going to be allowed to fly with us.

From my days as Captain with ACA, I remember one time I actually had to intervene in person (vs. making a PA) and the issue was resolved to the FA's satisfaction. As flight attendants have often pointed out to me (and it seems to be true), having one of the pilots involved seems to lend a much greater air of authority to any discussion and passengers take things more seriously.

My last involvement with an issue in back resulted in us returning to the gate to have two guys removed from the plane. I can't remember the specific details, but they were in the emergency exit row and were being contentious with the flight attendants to the point where the lead FA called up front to complain. They don't do this lightly (i.e. calling us to complain) and the Captain took it seriously and made the call to remove the guys.

I heard of one guy (back in my ACA days) being removed in cuffs when he got belligerent with the Captain. On those small planes, some passengers treat the crew the way a lot of people treat FAs on the larger planes, and by that I mean condescendingly. In that one instance, some guy wasn't complying with the Captain's directive about something (perhaps changing seats for weight and balance) and got in the Captain's face, telling him "I don't have to do what you say." This Captain told him, "You aren't going with us to Albany. Your choice now is to get off or be taken off." The guy said he wasn't getting off and the police were called. When they showed up, the guy got much more cooperative but that bell can't be unrung and he was taken away in cuffs.

Here is a fresh doc, up to date as of today October 27th:

PDF - 2p2 thread - 1523(!) pages

And as an added bonus, here is the equivalent PDF summary of the ongoing thread with W0X0F that's also underway on flyertalk.com (although I didn't bother to update it this quarter, due to such little traffic):

PDF - FlyerTalk thread - 278 pages

Can you lay out the most efficient (including good value) way for a friend (really) to go from no college degree to working for a major airline, including the option to just get a private pilot license and decide it's not for him? Also he plays poker so there would be some benefit if he could do this in either the Vegas area or Canada or elsewhere where online poker is legal. Perhaps a program w/ a college degree built in is needed?

Suppose that you are flying in a safe country with modern and up to date planes/equipment. Roughly how many hours of flying time in similar planes for the pilot would make you comfortable flying with him?

I've only skimmed this thread a bit but have gotten much more into flying this year (will end up w/ about 60k miles by the end) so am pretty excited to read through it. I'm going to take my longest flight ever in early Dec from LAX-IST on TK's 777!

It won't cost him a dime to join the Air Force.

And Vegas has an Air Force base!

I'm new here and still reading from the beginning but after reading the above post, I had to stop and tell you how much I'm enjoying this thread. I'm only up to 2009 (post #1026) but really appreciate your well written answers and your humor.

It's been a great read so far and I'm looking forward to catching up on the next 4000 posts. Well done Sir!

Really appreciate the thread and your answers. Thanks.

Two horrendous questions for you.

The black box. Every plane has them but considering current technology aren't they a bit outdated?

Wouldn't it make sense to have video inside the cockpit to record anything that happens that might want to be reviewed later on.

What's your favorite movie involving a plane? I have two Airplane! and a way old-school movie called 12'Oclock high starting Gregory Peck.

Thanks again,
Joe

When I started this thread, I put any pics I used on my Apple me.com account. Apple discontinued the photo gallery some time ago, so now all those links from the first couple of years no longer work. I still have the pics and I'd like to edit those posts with links to the pics (now on ImageShack). I've sent a couple of PMs to 2p2 mods about this, asking if I could get temporary ability to edit old posts, but I never got a response.

Thanks for putting together the PDF file baronworm.

I'm not an expert on this and I certainly have no special knowledge. I took my own circuitous path to an airline cockpit and it certainly wasn't efficient (I spent over 10 years building time while working as a programmer).

Good value might be elusive; it's going to be expensive no matter how you slice it. Embry-Riddle University produces a lot of pilots who go on to airline careers. It's not cheap, but it's respected and has a great track record. They have campuses in Florida and Arizona.

"Flying with him" as a crew member? Or flying as a passenger on his plane? I've never really given it any thought, but U.S. airlines usually treat a pilot with less than 100 hours in type as a "green" pilot, with higher weather minimums required during this period. They also don't pair two low time (in type) pilots on a trip (sometimes referred to as "green on green").

I've been to Istanbul maybe a dozen times, but always out of JFK. From LAX, that's got to be a 14-15 hour flight so you'll have four pilots (two crews) on board to split up the flying. That'll be a long flight if you're in coach. I hope you can sleep much of the way.

Thanks for that. As I alluded to above, the pics that were embedded in many of those responses no longer display. I hope that doesn't detract too much.

I never gave this a thought until you brought it up, but you've certainly got a good point. The limitations that once existed in data storage really don't exist any more. There would be considerations such as how many cameras (one, two, ten?) and where would they be placed (i.e. what would they be monitoring)?

The idea of having video monitoring in the cockpit has been floated before and pilot unions have strongly resisted it. You can count me among those who would be against it. You might ask why and in response I put it to you: how would you like to have your every move recorded while you're at work? Yes, you might say, but public safety is involved. To which I would suggest that there are many other jobs we might want to video, using this same logic. How about cameras recording a doctor's every move in the operating room? Or air traffic controllers? Firemen, policemen...the list goes on and on.

It would be hard to think of two better candidates. I've seen Airplane! at least a half dozen times and I still enjoy it. Some great lines in that movie.

Having a camera in the cockpit would be a detriment to safety, I think, particularly in multi-crew environments. No one would want to say anything that could be held against them which may subtly stifle communication in an emergency.

For single-pilot crew it may increase safety but I would absolutely not volunteer to have one on me. It would change the focus of decision making from "what's the safest, most practical option here?" to "how can I avoid getting done?" which would be a distraction. The video also would never be able to see the whole situation, so something that looks unsafe or illegal could be perfectly safe and legal. Good luck trying to prove otherwise.

Without looking at safety, there's also the consideration that pilots are very often not treated fairly after incidents as it is. Having video would only make the witch hunts worse.

The tv series Mayday (or whatever it's called outside Canada) does a good job of showing how the black box has evolved. You see older crashes where there is no black box, to where there are just a few metrics being recorded by a stylus scratching metal, to modern boxes with millions of data points.

The next big advancement seems to be actually real time streaming of data from the plane - so the black box becomes much less important and more of a backup in case data transmission fails. W0X0F, has there ever been talk of streaming the cockpit audio to be recorded automatically somewhere? I can imagine pilot concerns there as well.

Hi, W0X0F!

Registered just to take part in this incredible thread! I'm a USAF pilot getting close to retirement, trying to get ramped up on what flying for civilian airlines is like. I'll confess - I haven't read EVERY page in your 355-page thread - but I found the info many months ago on how the bidding system works to be of huge help to me in trying to learn about what I hope will be my new job!

Since I pretty much know nothing on civilian flying (pretty much all of my hours are military) my questions are pretty vague and open ended - but I'd very much appreciate any advice you'd have for someone trying to put in an application in the very near future!

My understanding is that it's not really necessary to live where you're domiciled, though it can be much more convenient that way. Is this true? if I chose to live elsewhere and commute, how much of a pain in the butt would I be getting myself in for?

I've had a recent deployment plus a bunch of family issues that has put me behind in getting my application completed and online, in that I'm planning retirement in about 5 months and haven't got my app completed yet. I know this puts me behind, but trying to determine how badly... How long is the hiring process normally, from the time the process begins to the point where you have a job? (I'm trying to determine if I can hope for a job immediately after retirement, or will be waiting for a few months...)

I'm planning on going through one of the interview prep companies; my understanding is that while this is not required, it's a great way to get familiar with the interview process and get prepared. Any feedback about the value of these companies for interview prep?

Right now it seems like the most important choice in deciding who I'd like to work for are pay scale and domicile locations (for convenience). Is this about right, or are there other pieces of the puzzle I should be considering?

And, of course, the open ended question - any advice for a guy hoping to make the transition? I've got my ATP, 20 years of military flying (all in turbine powered multi engine aircraft, with heavy and overseas experience) so my hope is I'll at least be looked at - might this be accurate, or are there still a lot of guys like me out there trying to get in the door? (Hoping not to have to put my college-days pizza delivery experience to use after I get out, but I do need something to supplement my retirement check!)

Thanks again for hosting a hugely informative and entertaining thread!

I assume you're talking about all cockpit audio, not just radio transmissions (which are already recorded and archived for at least six months). I've never heard it mentioned as anything that's ever been considered and I'd hate to see it happen. It would certainly stifle the casual conversations we have at altitude.

All things being equal, you definitely want to live where you're domiciled. It's a huge quality of life boost. I used to fly out of Washington Dulles and I lived about seven miles from the airport. I remember ending trips with guys who then had to commute home to places as far away as the west coast (we had one pilot who commuted to Peru). I would be home or on the golf course before their flight home even took off.

My current commute is one of the easiest possible: D.C. to New York. It still costs me at least four hours on either end of a trip and if my trip ends too late, I'm stuck in New York for the night before commuting home early in the morning.

Another big advantage of living at your domicile is that you're available for last minute flights that come open. When the company has trouble filling these flights, they resort to paying premium pay to any pilot who can get to the airport in a reasonable amount of time. My company pays double for these.

The hiring process has always been a bit of a crap shoot, but the supply of qualified pilots has dwindled. When I got hired at my first airline, I had about 2300 hours total time and I was considered a marginal candidate. In today's environment, someone with that kind of time would be snapped up by a regional carrier (the ones flying the RJs). The military training makes you a strong candidate and you should have no trouble finding a job.

My brother was in your situation back in '97. He retired from the Air Force as a Lt. Colonel, current in C-5s and he was Stan/Eval for 21st Air Force. Pretty good credentials, but over the next seven months, he got rejected by AirBorne Express (a cargo company that's no longer around) and by UPS (he thought the interview and sim went great). Then he interviewed with FedEx and didn't hear from them for almost two months. He was getting a little discouraged by this time and then got an interview with Delta. He went there on a Thursday and they offered him a spot in a class starting the following Monday. Naturally he accepted.

After he started the class, FedEx called to offer him a job. He actually wanted to fly for a cargo carrier, but being the straight shooter that he is, he honored his commitment to Delta and stayed there.

My guess is that, in today's environment, you won't have the problems he did and you'll be snapped right up.

I didn't use one, though I know many guys who did. I think it's definitely worth it for you. Like my brother, you had 20 years in the military where you never really had a job interview (like I did many times in the civilian world). You should get that experience. In many cases, these prep services have very specific information about the style and content of the interviews you will encounter as different airlines. They'll conduct mock interviews and give you some great feedback on how to improve.

You might also consider the projected hiring at each airline. Delta is starting up a hiring wave right now and it's great to be on the front of the wave. Seniority follows you throughout your career and getting in at the beginning of the wave vs. the end can make a huge difference in time to upgrade, kind of equipment you fly and schedules you can get. I think Delta will hire 400-500 guys by the end of next year (I could be wrong here).

Get moving on it. You should be in very good shape. Good luck and PM me when you actually start the process. If I can get you any specific info, I'll be glad to do it.

Great thread OP.

Ramp here. The other day operations were shut down due to lightning and for some reason a pilot pulled into the gate without wingwalkers. It was pretty funny because in less than a minute a swarm of managers descended like carrion crows. Apparently, the pilot claimed "he was just following the book," which I'm guessing was a load of ****. My question is, why would he do that in the first place? Just to shave off a couple of seconds on the deplaning time when we open back up? For the record, he parked nearly perfectly.

Another time, a pilot called for an audit of the outbound crew. The balance was off by about 200 pounds (it was an MD88-- freight labeled in bin 4 had been incorrectly placed in 3). The flight was completely full: is two hundred pounds really enough of a difference for the pilot to tangibly feel like something is off? At what point in the flight does the pilot feel like something is off with the plane? Landing?


Sometimes at night, pilots (especially Airtran/Sw) will taxi in and out without their lights on. Why? It drives me off the wall, because it's often hard to tell if the plane is moving or not, particularly when its raining. Please turn your lights on for the safety of us worms on the ramp.

EDIT: Oh yeah I forgot to ask. Did you play any halloween pranks on the passengers this year? Some pilot in the smoking area was telling me some classic stories about halloween flights-- haunted planes, zombie flight attendents, and "mysterious" power outages 30000 feet in the air. At the very least, I hope you said, "now sit back, relax, and enjoy the FRIGHT!!"

I love that simile (carrion crows). Perfect!

Procedures can vary from airline to airline, but where I work we can't taxi in without the wingwalkers. And if we see any equipment that's not behind the painted lines, we also stop. Maybe this guy had a commute home to catch and decided to throw the rulebook out the window. I wonder what kind of trouble he got into.

I heard of a guy doing this once when he said the plane "felt funny" and he wanted to know if the CG was miscalculated. I never heard what the result was on that one. In your example, 200 pounds is noise level and putting it in bin 3 rather than 4 actual puts it closer to the plane's normal CG. If 200 pounds was critical, they'd have to monitor where passengers sat in the cabin, which they do on some smaller planes (50 passenger RJ and smaller), but I've never seen on an MD-88.

That seems inexcusable and I can't imagine it's their SOP. We actually use the lights at all times, even daylight. It gives a clear indication to people on the ground and in other planes that this plane is moving or is about to move.

I had one flight on Halloween: Orlando to Los Angeles. I had lost track of the days and didn't realize it was Halloween until I saw the gate agents and flight attendants wearing masks. Sad to say, we (the pilots) didn't do anything, though I would never even consider having a "power outage" during flight. Nervous flyers wouldn't appreciate the joke and in this litigious society I wouldn't be surprised to see a lawsuit come from it.

Was on a B757 and as we were backing out from the gate and starting to make the turn, I heard a loud bang and we immediately stopped. The pilot came over the PA and stated the ground crew had broken the tow bar. We sat right there on the ramp and didn't move until maintenance had checked everything out. We were cleared to continue and had an uneventful flight. What happened and how often does it happen? Also, I noticed upon landing the nose gear did not touch down until long after the rear wheels, (we had a long runway), which made me think they were being extra cautious based on what had happened.

I can answer some of this, if it's not stepping on OP's toes. The tow bar breaking is fairly common, usually because the equipment is old and ****ty. Typically, the pusher will just continue carefully (if he can), or just tell the pilot that he can't push back anymore. I guess your plane was still partially in gate. The way you're making it sound (the break happening after the turn) it sounds like the crew may have neglected to put the steering pin in, which would be more serious. I have witnessed it happen on an MD88 two times, fortunately without consequence. On a 757, this is a pretty big ****-up, because anyone can easily see if the pin is in or out. I have never witnessed that. I certainly have never worked a plane that maintenance had to come check out after pushback, and I don't think I can recall ever even seeing such a thing. Also, whenever I have seen a tow bar break, on the ground I can can barely hear it, so I'm pretty surprised you were able to hear a banging in cabin. I won't comment on the landing, since I have no idea. So, a number of aspects of your incident are uncommon, and when taken in sum are downright unusual.

Which leads me to another question for OP: How often do pilots lie about/downplay mechanical problems so not to alarm the passengers? I assume nothing binds you to tell the truth.

Thanks johnnycarson. The pilots made it sound like it was a pretty big deal. I actually got the impression from the tone of his voice we would be switching planes. Not sure what the loud noise actually was, but it was definitely noticeable. I remember thinking of the hundreds of times backing from a gate, I have never heard anything that loud. It was a maintenance base for the airline, so it only took about 30 minutes to get on our way after all was said and done. When we landed with the nose up for quite a while, it really made we wonder how big a deal it might have been.

On another subject, is this normal procedure for a landing gear problem?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3syTxW85Ik

Thanks johnny. I'm sure you've seen this more than I have. It's probably happened to me fewer than 10 times over the past 20 years. Usually it's a minor annoyance...a delay of 5 to 30 minutes depending on the availability of another towbar.

It's not uncommon to kind of sugar coat things. I make an effort to be very straightforward in my PAs about issues we're dealing with but there's really no point in going into great detail on some things. The aviation lexicon (like other specialties) can be arcane and it would be easy to cause more concern and anxiety by mentioning things that we consider almost routine.

The main thing I try to do when explaining a problem is to present the basic issue and then reassure the passengers. For example, with a hydraulic problem we might call for CFR (Crash Fire Rescue) equipment to be standing by after landing just to be on the safe side. (The service is free to us and those guys kind of like the opportunity to run a real-life scenario.) In this case, I'll be up front about the issue (e.g. the flaps are stuck and we'll be landing faster than normal) and explain that there is really no danger but they will see emergency vehicles which we've called out just in case. In such a situation, we always emphasize the importance of listening to the flight attendants and following their directions.

Bottom line: I never lie, but I might not go into great detail. The focus is really on easing the anxiety of nervous flyers.