http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17605770

Pretty awesome.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._206461-1.html

Passenger Lands Safely After Pilot Stricken Aloft

I find it surprising she was able to land the plane, but it was a horrible landing and she had solo'd 30 years prior.

A couple questions about this story:

What kind of doctor gave an 81 year old a medical certficate? The guy's not flying a light sport here, he can do some real damage in an urban area with a cessna 414. Is it common for guys that old to have current medical certs? Will the doctor get a stern letter from the FAA?

I don't have any statistics available on the age distribution of medical certificate holders, but there's no age limit. If it can be shown that the doctor was just rubber-stamping his medical (i.e. not actually examining him), he would have some problems. But the 3rd Class medical (required for a private pilot) is not demanding and the only age milestone that I see in the regs is for age 40, after which the 3rd Class is good for only two years vs. three years for younger guys.

A similar debate comes up for drivers of cars, though piloting an airplane is certainly less forgiving of small lapses in judgment and capability.

w0x,

small correction: 3rd class medical is good for 5 years for folks under 40. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_c...es#Third_class, which says this rule changed in 2008.

You're right, and I was looking at the reg when I typed that. Somehow missed the 60 months that was right there --> FAR 61.23 (see the table a little way down).

Maybe they should tighten this up so that a 3rd class is only good for 1 year for someone over 80 years old.

(insert logan's run joke here)

It seems nuts to me that an 81 year old on his last legs can tool around in a 6000 pound, 220mph flying bomb just for joy rides with his wife. It's incredibly selfish, and confirms the "dangerous, rich, old white guy" reputation of general aviation.

i dunno, i've met some 81 year olds who seem fit enough to me to fly a plane. would you have felt this way if the dude was 61? what if he was a smoker or was diagnosed with hypertension (which i believe are risk factors for cardiac problems)?

i guess my point is age is but one of many factors related to a pilot's fitness to fly. unless you know more about homeboy's health than i do, i don't think you can categorically state that he shouldn't have been up there.

i do agree that we as a community must pay attention to how we are perceived by the general population.

I imagine a hypertension diagnosis would cost you your medical at any age, but especially after 60. The medical certification process is very strict for good reason, and if this guy really wants to fly, he can hire an instructor or get a light sport "driver's license" medical.

About his health: I know he had a heart attack and that death is very common among 81 year olds. If he seemed medically fit beforehand then that's a reason not to let 81 year olds fly. I'm sure you know plenty of old people fit enough to fly, but could they handle an engine failure after takeoff in a light twin over a crowded neighborhood in IMC? That's enough to get anyone's heart racing at redline. This guy's heart gave out on a seemingly normal flight.

Interesting that you brought race into this. Why?

And, btw, there have been plenty of instances of younger pilots dying while at the controls. If you don't like the idea of an 81 year old flying around, you have to ask: where do you draw the line? I personally wouldn't have a problem with more thorough screening as we get older, but I'm getting a sense that you would just like to see every old guy grounded, regardless of their individual health.

It's a small step from this kind of thinking to soylent green. Your viewpoint might change as you get a little older.

I brought race into it because that's the perception, that general aviation is just for old rich white males (it's not, obviously, but that isn't the point.)

There's a couple lines here: how large of an aircraft, and at what age. We draw lines ALL the time in aviation, so you can't just ask "where do we draw the line?" like it's an argument unto itself against line drawing. There's a risk/reward in every aspect of aviation, and we have to draw lines somewhere.

I'm sure my viewpoint will change when I get older, but I'm sure it'd be different if I was grounded for diabetes, or for having had a concussion, or whatever. If I'm rich enough when I'm 80 to go for joy rides in a Cessna 414, I'll have enough money to hire a copilot for the ride. If I'm not that rich, I'll just fly LSAs on a driver's license medical. A typical LSA would barely put a dent in the aluminum siding, while a C414 could take out several houses in a fiery mess.

How large an RV should one be prevented from driving at 81? If force still equals mass * acceleration then we must consider banning some more folks from driving them.
Did the pre-departure discussion go something along the lines of "you know, Mildred, I believe I'll have a heart attack a few hours after we land so, so I'm quite sure I'll get you there safely."
Really, a light sport aircraft is safer because it kills fewer people? That's the logic? Everyone, whether or not they do a good job of it (or they're suicidal) self-assesses every time they get on a bicycle, never mind captains a ship.
I'm pretty sure this couple figured that the pilot was going to get them where they were going. Given the wife's strong enough desire to live that she landed the plane on her own, I'm don't think she planned on dying that day.

did they walk away from the landing?
If so it was a good landing!

Kinetic Energy (Force) equals 1/2 Mass times Speed Squared.

Any idea as to how this could happen? Basically a pilot tried to declare an emergency in Denver due to smoke in the cockpit, but air traffic controllers ignored him because they thought it was a prank. Are pranks on air traffic frequencies common? I would think it would be the type of situation where you assume the worst until proven otherwise.

Absolutely. I think this controller is in for some "sensitivity" training, at the very least. A small (very small) contributing factor in this case is the pilot's use of an abbreviated call sign. If ever there is a time for use of the complete callsign, declaring an emergency has got to be at the top of the list.

This aviation world is getting to be a small place. I think I know two of the people quoted in the article you linked (Bill Voss and Katie Pribyl).

Every bit of my training WRT talking to controllers is essentially declare an emergency, squawk appropriately, and then just do whatever the F you need to do, broadcasting your intentions when able. As you see here the FAA being ignorant here (there's no justification for the guy treating it as a joke) didn't prevent a safe landing because the pilot just said "hey I'm broke, here I come," then landed.

If it's in a high traffic airport and a pilot needs priority handling, that becomes a problem. In that case I would "aviate, navigate, communicate", the mantra that EVERY pilot in the world uses 50 times a week during briefs and what-not. You'll note that "communicate" is last, and there's good reason for that.

I'm not sure what the beep sounds heard in the cabin are called (the ones stewardesses and pilots use to communicate, like BEEP-->"you can start serving drinks now"). But is there an emergency code or something like that, so that every steward would know to run to the phone when they hear a certain amount of beeps?

Sometimes when scared on a plane I take reads off the stewards' faces to find out if we are actually in trouble. At what point would they know about there possibly being something wrong with the plane? I read the article about how the Air France mystery crashdown (Brazil-France flight at night) had happened, at what if any point would the stewardesses have been filled in?

There was a crash a week or two ago in Russia that was caused by icing on the wings. I remember the famous Valujet crash too. They said that the plane was "uncontrollable" because of the ice. How does some ice affect the plane so much? I'm assuming there can't be a huge amount of ice in there or they wouldn't let the plane take off?

The use of chimes to alert flight attendants can vary from airline to airline. One common use is to ding it when passing 10,000' on the climb. This is when the FAs make their PA about electronic devices and it's typically when they'll first get up if the air is smooth. We also use a double chime when we're within 10-15 minutes of landing and we want the FAs to make their final preparations and take a seat. This is the one where a lot of FAs will say "We've been cleared to land" when, if fact, we're probably not even talking to the tower controller yet.

In any kind of abnormal situation, notification of the flight attendants is a priority, but it's not the top priority. Many Captains will even brief them that if something is going wrong and you haven't heard from us, it's probably because we're kind of busy. At some point, one of the pilots will call back to the lead FA and fill her in. If it's a true emergency, this brief will include the type of situation, the time remaining to landing, whether or not to expect an evacuation, and any special considerations (e.g. don't use the right overwing exit because that engine is on fire). In the Air France case, I doubt anyone took the time to talk to a flight attendant. They literally had their hands full.

Ice accumulation has several negative effects on an airplane: it adds weight (probably negligible for a large plane, but a consideration in light planes), it changes the lift characteristics of the wings, it can affect airflow into the engines and it can also render certain sensors unreliable if they're not heated.

I may be having a senior moment, but I'm not sure which Valujet crash you're referring to that had to do with ice. Do you know the flight number or year? If it was on takeoff, there should have been no ice or snow on it, so your last assumption is correct.

Hey W0X0F. A few assorted questions for you.

Singapore Airlines now operates the world's longest passenger flight, from Singapore to Newark in ~19h. What the hell are the pilots doing for 19 hours? Depending on the number of pilots required to be on board, can't they figure on getting at least 8 consecutive hours off during the flight? Or does a more maritime-esque 4 on 4 off schedule come into effect? Would you personally elect to fly this route? I imagine you'd be getting paid for the full 19h, including the many hours of sleep you'd be getting, and would have to fly relatively few of these trips to meet your quota.

On my last flight into JFK, we arrived at the same time as a flight coming in from Port-au-Prince. I know Delta has fewer 2nd-and-3rd-world destinations than American, but how do you suppose bidding for this trip works? Can you actively bid against a destination? And if you did somehow end up getting forced to fly to a place like Haiti, do you feel like the airline ought to support you with bodyguards and such?

I flew from AUH to CDG on Etihad recently (which is a fantastic airline, by the way), and a fight broke out in the cabin immediately after landing. The argument took place in French, but I think a passenger yelled at a woman because her baby had been screaming for most of the duration of the flight. I think the defensive father got involved, things were thrown, the woman's hair got yanked, and she was punched repeatedly (with baby in her hands, no less). The FA's tried their best to restrain the folks from fighting, but rage overpowered the FA's passivity. We taxied to the gate, waited for the ground crew to align the jetbridge, waited for first and business class to disembark (the woman getting punched in the face the whole time), and then finally police came aboard to take care of business. I'm sure if we had been in midair, the pilot(s) would have come back and addressed the issue, and perhaps diverted if the situation was severe enough. I guess my question is: what types of in-cabin situations are severe enough to disrupt the pilots' approach/landing/taxi (if there are any)? It was a 7 hour flight on an A340-600, so I imagine there were some other authoritative-looking pilots around who could have helped with the situation. I feel like the entire situation was handled poorly, but I'm not sure whether anything else could have been or should have been done.

And lastly, a question you might not be able to answer: Onboard Airbus planes, typically smaller A320s or A319s, I sometimes hear a hydraulic (?) sound during taxiing, coming from the cargo hold, I believe. It's hard to describe, but is a rythmic "vooop...vooop...vooop" sound, and it once continued for the duration of what must have been a 10-15 minute taxi at CDG. Ailerons are still and flaps and spoilers have usually been retracted by then. My best guess is that the cargo door is being unlocked or something, but that doesn't explain why it's repeated. Any guess?

Thanks.

Any flight longer than 12 hours will have two complete crews on board. The rest break schedule is up to the crews. On a flight that long, I think I'd want to two 4.5 hour rest breaks rather than one 9 hour break. (Assuming 18 hours for rest breaks; both crews are probably up front for the first thirty minutes and last thirty minutes of the flight.)

On the handful of long haul flights I've done (Cairo, Tel Aviv, Amman), we often went with a 50% / 100% / 50% division of the rest period. The relief crew takes half of their rest break after takeoff (approximately 3 hours). When they return, the other crew takes their entire break (6 hours). When they return to the cockpit, the relief crew takes the other half of their rest time. I've also done it where we just split the rest period into two parts, each taking our 6 hours. I prefer the 50/100/50 split. For ultra long haul flights (16+ hours), I think I'd personally prefer four equal breaks.

You get full pay for the entire flight, including the time you're on break (dozing for dollars). For that 19 hour trip you mention, you could fly two of those a month and have 78 hours, which is a good month. Assuming the trip is a four day trip, you could work eight days a month and that's why pilots bid those trips...it means lots of time off.

Bidding for these trips is just like any other bidding. Seniority rules. I specifically bid to avoid certain destinations (Africa and Georgetown, Guyana) because I just don't want the exposure to malaria. I've been to Accra, Ghana twice and have nothing against the flight or the destination itself, but there have been enough cases of pilots getting malaria over there that I don't want to go back.

We used to fly to Lagos (not sure if we still do) and I heard that the crews were under armed escort to and from the airport there. Also, the crews stay in a protected compound. Not sure I want any part of that.

This sounds like a horribly handled situation. If the pilots were aware of what was going on and didn't have law enforcement go to the scene immediately after landing, something is very wrong with that airline.

I can tell you exactly what this is. To me, it always sounded like a dog barking and it's very annoying (to some people, it sounds like rhythmic sawing). You're hearing the PTU (power transfer unit) which is a hydraulically driven pump that uses hydraulic pressure from one system to provide hydraulic pressure on another system. This typically activates on-demand, i.e. when hydraulic pressure on one system is too low (as is the case when they shut down an engine while taxiing in).

This will happen on a 757 if the left motor is not running during taxi. It can be heard in the cabin too, but I think it sounds a little different than the Airbus. Because of this PTU, most 757 pilots will do all single-engine taxiing using the left engine. (No PTU comes on in this case because we only need the left hydraulic system on the ground.)

Good Evening,
I came across your forum while doing a search online and I was hoping that you could possibly assist my son with a project he has for his Career Class. He actually needs to interview an Airline Pilot. I've listed his questions below and both he and I would greatly appreciate if you could provide your input. Thank you in advance for your time and assistance.

Mike

Airline Pilot Questions
1. What are the education requirements in order to become an airline pilot?
2. What is an Aviation related major?
3. What are the best courses to take in high school if you want to become an airline pilot?
4. How many years do you have to attend a regular college? Flight school?
5. What does it mean to be grounded?
6. How many days of the week do you have to work and how many hours do you have to work each day?
7. What is your work environment like?
8. What types of personality traits do you need in order to become an airline pilot?
9. What is the most difficult thing you have to do on the job?
10. What is a typical day like for an airline pilot?

OK, Mike, I'll give it a shot...


There are no minimum education requirements for this job. I think most major airlines look for a college education, but I've flown with guys who never went to college (a minority among pilots, but they're out there). When I was at ACA, we had a guy who got hired at age 19. (You're not likely to see anyone that young at a major airline.)

The airlines don't really care what you major in; they just like the degree. But if you're interested in an aviation related major, just look at the areas of study offered by Embry-Riddle University.

Again, there's no required area of study. But a good foundation in math and physics will make a lot of the concepts of flight training easier to grasp.

No minimum requirement for either. There is no requirement to attend a "flight school." Many pilots just learn from an instructor at their own pace. I knew one guy who went from zero time to pilot's license in three weeks and I took about four months. I think most people stretch it out over a longer period of time (determined by their schedule and finances).

It means you can't exercise the privileges of your pilot's license. You can be grounded for medical reasons or as a result of disciplinary action (by either your employer or the FAA).

There is no good answer for this one. It can vary greatly depending on pilot seniority and personal preferences. When I was flying international flights, I would sometimes fly only four three-day trips in a month. Each trip had two duty periods of 10-12 hours. The trips might be spread out during the month or run consecutively. A pilot who commutes across the country might prefer to commute once and fly all of his trips back-to-back and then have 18 days in a row off. Someone else might just prefer to fly Monday through Wednesday each week.

If you mean outside of the airplane, we have a crew room at the airport and it can be described as "adequate" but it pales in comparison to the crew room in Atlanta. The crew room at JFK has a large flat-screen TV and several comfortable recliners in it for pilots to lounge in. We also have a quiet room with several recliners and no windows for those who want to sleep.

I don't really know how to answer this. I hear people say that pilots share certain traits, but we're not all cut from the same cloth and I've seen a wide spectrum of personalities in my years of flying. Some guys are anal, some are laidback. Some are quiet, some are talkative. Some are conservative, some are liberal. And, very rarely, I fly with someone who is just a little weird (I'd recommend avoiding this particular trait).

Honestly, nothing seems difficult at this point.

I'll get back to you on this one. There really is no typical day, but I'll take a shot at it later.

Jeez dude you are a very nice person.

Yeah seriously.

Mike, there's a special circle of hell for parents that do their kid's projects for them.