It's not about the desire to quit, it's about the idea of having a way out if things were to get too bad. The mere fact that i'm thinking like that is a good indication that i'm not going to make it on my own without further help. I've been clean since monday, still feel awful and am using marijuana very heavily for sleep and relief.

ChipWrecked,

FWIW, no offense taken and I honestly welcome any viewpoint in the thread. I happen to believe your line of thinking is skewed, and it would probably take either you or someone close to you getting addicted for you to understand completely, but you have a right to an opinion just like the rest of us.

...and if you, or a loved one screwing up their life is the only way for you to understand, then I hope you never do.

Just apparently born without empathy or decency. Pretty sure I'd rather "s*** the life bed"

This is what always got me during my many attempts at quitting oxys.
FWIW, i never shot anything and only snorted H a few times when i was very sick and couldn't find pills. I only mention this b/c ime those that inject opiates are on another level of addiction so to speak and seem to have a much harder time quitting.

Its true, the physical symptoms of opiate withdrawal are unbearable. As a few have already stated, the inability to sleep is probably the worst part. Especially when its coupled with being freezing cold despite burying yourself in a pile of blankets, whilst sweating profusely.

But, once the physical symptoms subside, you are forced to deal with your addiction mentally, which is extremely difficult. Its not just the desire to use. I developed severe anxiety that was hard to deal with, as i had never experienced any form of "mental illness" before (this also passes). The only way i can describe it is that feeling you get as a kid when you are on a roller coaster and it takes that first big dip and your stomach drops- only its like that all day.

I think its a big part of why addicts relapse. A lot of people seem to think you detox and that hard part is over-its not. Your brain still has a great deal of healing to do. I think its takes 6-12 months of being totally substance free before your brain is essentially back to normal.

edited for hope: It is possible to quit. I know b/c ive done it (without treatment other than suboxone, which i tapered off during the course of a week). The most amazing and improbable success story ive seen was a friend of mine quitting after being addicted for probably 3-4 years. At his peak he was taking down 10+ oc 80s at a time. I still dont know how he is alive.

imozyslow,

Where in VA do you live? I'm in Virginia Beach. Are you still using oxys, and if not did you kick on your own or with treatment?

I live in Northern VA.

I kicked them on my own (after many, many failed attempts), using suboxone for 6-7 days, tapering down each day.

Can you give some more details if you don't mind? How many mgs of Sub did you start with and how slowly did you taper? When you say 6 or 7 days i'm assuming you acquired them off the street and just did it yourself?

Thanks and congrats on kicking.

I actually saw a few doctors. IIRC, i took 8mg of sub the first day, 6 the second, then 4, 2, 1 and .5 on the last day.
Just to give you an idea, i was probably doing 160mg of oxy a day just so i wouldnt get sick.

Ive talked to a lot of doctors, done a good amount of research and imo most importantly spoken to a decent amount of people that have gone the suboxone route.
In my non-expert opinion, using sub to get through the phsycial w/d the first week of quitting, sticking to some type of taper schedule is the best way the medicine should be used.

Unfortunately, a lot of the doctors that run the clinics that are prescribing sub seem all to eager to get you started on a high dosage, "stabilize" you, then promise to start tapering you down at some point in the future. Im sure wed all like to believe doctors have nothing but the most altruistic motives, but they are operating a business. The more patients they have coming in each month, dropping off $200 for a script, the more money they make.

A lot of people seem to overlook the fact that suboxone is still an opiate. The idea is to get off opiates right?

So you basically tapered the suboxone on your own terms? The reason i'm asking these questions is because I have access to suboxones but have only have bad experiences with them (and yes, I know the correct way to take them, etc).

You're 100% right about the doctors though. It seems suboxone would be very useful if doctors would prescribe it in a useful way instead of as a substitute.

No, i wouldnt say it was on my own terms. I was advised by a professional that i should just use suboxone to get through the physical symptoms and not take it for more than a 7 days. Apparently, it takes about 2 weeks of using every day to become addicted to suboxone. I should note that i was not a patient of his and he was not writing me scripts (weird, huh?). However, i did pretty much invent my own taper schedule.

I took 2mg to start, then an additional 1mg every hour until the w/d was pretty much gone. I took a little less each day, nothing very scientific. Some of the symptoms were still there, mostly the fatigue. Although, it was manageable, particularly when compared to how you feel when trying to quit cold turkey.

Also, i know its hard to do because the anticipation of withdrawal is hard to deal with, but you really need to wait until you are in full blown withdrawal before taking suboxone. This could be your problem, as ive read/been told, you will go into an intense w/d if you take them too early.

I guess the closest I've gotten to any of this is taking Oxycodone (7.5mg of Oxycontin I think) and Tylenol 3. I've taken them when recovering from some minor surgeries and stuff like that. I mainly just found they made me kind of drowsy and out of it. Is this like what a high feels like but on a very scaled down level? The only reason I asked is because I guess they're all opiates.

FWIW, I couldn't wait to stop taking them. I had some ****ting problems when on them, shoulda taken stool softeners as I found out later on. But, that being said, I could definitely see how someone who wants to just relax, feel no pain and just zone out would enjoy taking that stuff.

imoz,

Yeah i'm aware that you're supposed to wait to take them and i've still had very little luck using them.

n82,

Constipation is a normal side effect of opiates. It's good that you didn't enjoy being on them actually. Are you a user of any other drugs recreationally? Obv you don't have to answer that if you don't want to.

And yeah, feeling drowzy and out of it on a much higher scale is an appropriate description I guess. Just imagine that feeling coming about immediately (in the case of IV users) and much more intense.

Oxycodone serves a non-narcotic function when your brain actually registers pain that it needs to attack.

Layzie, Congrats on this step. I'm pretty concerned for you right now in many ways. But the one I wanted to talk about is your asking the levels of Sub you should take. I hope you're just asking for conversation (even though I suspect you aren't).

I would really suggest going to a few reputable places. If you're like many addicts you like to self prescribe. Most that do self prescribe hear from a Dr. "take 10mg 3x a day" and that translates into "take 20mg a day because these Dr's don't know I need more than the average".

I'm not preachng man I just would love to see you succeed and I think this might be a better way.

Nicksdad-
Its pointless to take more suboxone than you need to curb the withdrawals-you cannot get high.

Admittingly and obviously I know nothing about that med. I just saw him talking like the typical addictive personality, imo of course.

for some/most sure the idea is to get off opiates. for others though the goal may only be to escape from the day to day activities of a junkie. being 'hooked' on another drug obviously sucks but it sure beats the hell out of prison/death/homelessness/disease/lack of human contact etc..

i have read that kicking subs is fairly tame as long as you taper down and use otc meds like immodium, ibuprofen and ask a Dr for some clonidine.

now if we were talking about methadone here, i would totally be on board with you as that drug is apparently a HORROR to get off of and really wears on your body. Bupe seems to be a LOT easier to deal with, which makes sense as its only a partial agonist where H and methadone are full agonists.

NicksDad,

Point taken, and i'm asking like 80% out of curiousity 20% out of considering trying it on my own. As I said I've only had negative experiences trying it and I prefer to kick this without having to replace it with another substance. The fact that he was able to kick his habit the way he did is awesome and would not work for most people obviously.

Where i'm at right now is that I basically have to get into one of these 6-12 month programs. I know that I can't do this by myself. I know it's become stronger than me and that it's completely consumed my mind.

Anyone with experience with one of these facilities, regardless of what state (I would prefer to go out of state actually), I would appreciate any feedback or information you guys might be able to provide. PM's are fine as well for those of you who prefer to keep our conversations private.

It's crazy, tommorrow is 1 week clean for me. You'd think i'd be counting the days and feeling a sense of accomplishment, but all I feel is exhaustion and fear. Basically not an hour goes by where heroin doesn't cross my mind. Not necessarily in the respect that every hour I consider going to get high, but the feeling of the high itself, and the taste of the heroin is constantly on my mind.

I'm nowhere near where I need to be, and I feel that basically the fact that i'm having car troubles may be the only thing that's kept me clean. That's not to say that if I really tried that I couldn't get someone to deliver it, but when I get back on the road the temptation will get even worse.

Layzie stop beating yourself up.

how are your finances? if you have a few k to spend you could be in a treatment facility for a few weeks to a month by mid week.

sublime,


I'm not poor and homeless, but I don't have a few K to just throw down either. Any suggestions? If I recall you've been through alot as well as far as incarceration and such.

any/all treatment centers i have been to have been local and either covered by my insurance at the time or was a free slot that the center had. these places are super expensive out of pocket but if you did in fact have the extra money its obv a wise investment.

at this point i would perhaps look into intensive outpatient?

layzie,

if you're interested, the drugs.com forum (sub-forum, "Need to Talk?" i think it's called) has some regs that post there who are pretty much experts on sub tapering. some very helpful people on there if you're interested in checking it out.

There's a place in Philly that apparently runs like this:

-You live there, and are somehow given a job through a labor pool (not sure how this works)
-It costs 18.75$ a day to stay there, which comes out of the money you make working. You are allowed to not go to work and pay the 18.75$.
-You can't leave the place for 30 days, after that you're apparently allowed to leave on weekends.

Those are the only details I know. Is this basically just a halfway house?