Hi All,

It's been a while since I've been posting, but wanted to get some opinions/feedback in regards to a book that a colleague of mine and I are in the process of putting together.

I'm assuming it's been too long for most to recognize me but I was an active member of the forums and a professional player at HSNL/MSNL and MTTs, both live and online. After black Friday I decided to pursue a different career and I'm currently in the process of completing my doctorate in Psychology.

I was curious what y'all think about whether there would be a reasonable market to publish a Psychology of Poker book nowadays. I know in the prime years of online poker there certainly was, but I'm not sure whether this would be a worthwhile pursuit presently.

There are plenty of books out there, and there are a handful of psychology of poker books. The problem is, they are (with all due respect) ... very bad. From what I see, the books are either written by a poker player with essentially a layman's knowledge of psychology, or conversely a Psychologist with a layman's knowledge of poker.

The crux of the book would be to explain how to leverage psychological theory (based on actual empirical work)in both online and live games. I think the book would be valuable both to recreational and professional players.

Not sure whether this is something worth pursuing wholeheartedly, as I fear the market is dry presently.

Thoughts?

Best,
Stan

It sounds interesting and I’d buy it.

I’m not sure how many people in the poker world would feel the same way, though. Phsychology seems less used in poker now a days and people are more interested in just solving hands with PIO so they can play well against their opponents who are also solving hands woth PIO.

Hi Stan,

I'd be interested in a study answering the following controversial questions that have been bothering me:

1. Are people suffering from some specific personality disorders significantly more likely than the general population to start a poker career?

2. Are young poker pros substantially more likely than the general youth to develop certain PDs as a result of the immersion in the poker community?

Thanks!

At the risk of asking the obvious - have you approached Mason and David to get their thoughts on the market for it? I’d be interested in your book.

What you should work on is to figure out how a poker player can improve his mental game or work on his psychology in order to be even more rational/bot like. I think Sauce once said that he stopped caring whether he wins or not. In that state of mind, you are truly able to play your A game all the time.

Unfortunately, a human being can simply not care about most things in life. Kahnemann, Dalio and a few others point that out fairly well. So a book about ways to trick our mind would be awesome.

Don't see how you could do anything better than Jared Tendler, I also wouldn't imagine the market is very big. So doubt the profitability of what is a massive time investment.

One publisher who might disagree with this statement would be Two Plus Two, who publish a book entitled "The Psychology of Poker," by Alan N Schoonmaker P.H.D., with input on poker strategy from famed poker educator David Skalansky. You can purchase it from a link available on this very page.

Here is a little bit of advice from my late Father, who was a professional writer for over 60 years: Talking about your ideas can be productive. But if you intend to write about something don't talk about it, just write it.

You’re younger me! My doctorate is in psychology and I play poker. I, too, am writing a psychology of poker book but it has a unique twist to it that I can’t really share here, obviously. I’ll tell you that I have talked to Mason and he said he would be willing to review the manuscript upon completion but he noted he and 2+2 have a reputation for being difficult to work with in that they are very particular about the content and structure of the books they publish.

As far as marketability is concerned, I think you’ll need to focus on a niche that hasn’t been covered already. Avoiding tilt, getting “in the zone”, and similar concepts have been beaten to death. I’m curious as to which psychological theories you’re looking to “leverage” for your book. Hopefully it’s something unique that hasn’t been done yet. Either way, don’t expect to get rich. I’m mostly hoping to get picked up by a publisher, make a little bit of coin, and have another line added to my CV. How close are you to getting your doctorate?

So to my knowledge (though I may be mistaken) there isn't any empirical work to answer these questions definitively, but I'd venture to guess that:

1. In terms of Personality Disorders, rather than markers for them, I would find it difficult to imagine that such individuals would be more likely to start a career in poker as such disorders tend to be rather debilitating. As for those attempting to start a career as a poker pro, I'd guess that those who have Narcissistic Personality Disorder would be more likely than average, as well as individuals whose symptoms include manic episodes. This is speculative though. More interestingly though, if you look at sub-clinical dispositions such as the dark triad (Psychopathy, Machiavellianism, Narcissism), I think more likely than not that individuals that rate highly on the latter two would be more likely to both pursue and potentially succeed playing poker as a career than average.

2. Again, I'm not familiar with any literature that looks specifically at this but I believe that it's very likely that individuals who play poker professionally, particularly those who start at a young age are at greater risk for various different psychopathology. The sedentary lifestyle, limit on interpersonal relationships, and the anxiety associated with the lifestyle is more than likely to lead to psychological issues, particularly for those who are not actively taking steps to ameliorate these issues.

I respectfully would have to disagree that the goal, from a psychological standpoint, would be to be more rational/bot like. For sure, it is important to stay level headed and be cognizant of biases and of course, tilt. So if this is all you meant, then my apologies.

However, I feel that while poker has evolved over the years and the level of play is certainly more advanced, there is a pervading notion that there is little else more that you need other than GTO play (particularly in tournaments).

I feel like there is so much more to the game that can be exploited in terms of taking advantage of given that when you break it down to it's bare bones, poker is an expression of an individuals psychological proclivities, dispositions, biases, etc.

As for tricking your mind, I think a better way to put it is reframing your mindset. Sounds like nitpicking, but "tricking" sounds like suppression which is not what you'd want in the long run.

Hey Alobar,

Given that we proceed, I'll gladly take that challenge. Though some of the topics covered in Tendler's book would certainly be in our prospective book (e.g., tilt, emotional control, confidence, motivation, etc.), our book would be rather different, as it is from the perspective of Personality and Social Psychology.

If you remember Caro's book of tells for example, he gives examples of tells to look for, but they are not based on any empirical research (though the book is a classic, and certainly was valuable at least for its time). Our approach would look to apply scientific rigor in the psychological sciences to allow individuals to use psychological phenomena to both interpret actions as well as manipulate them at the table.

Here is an example, from my own life:

50/100 @ the PCA

Hero: $26,000
Villain: $50,000+

Barry G. opens from MP for 300.
Hero raises to 900 with 66 from CO.
Button re raises to 1600.
Barry G. Folds.
Hero calls.

Flop: AK6 rainbow

Hero checks.
Villain bets 2500.
Hero folds.

Now this may seem idiotic at face value. However... :

Hero is a loose and weak fish (likely a businessman), his preflop raise was very suspect and I was almost certain AK was not within his range.

There was a very subtle but important action that he took that allowed me to fold my set.

The villain ordered drinks and food throughout our session and tipped $1 every single time. I noticed that he had ordered a drink a few minutes prior to the hand, and I tanked and waited until the waitress brought him his drink.

Villain tipped 3$, and I insta mucked and showed my set of 6's.

Now, this is based on what's known as the "feel good do good phenomenon", which is fairly intuitive. Essentially people tend to act more benevolently when they are in an especially positive mood. Given that he never tipped more than $1, I felt that it was more than likely that he was very pleased with this flop.

This is certainly anecdotal, and by no means would I expect that in all cases this would ring true.

Villain however did stand up and throw his cards in a fit of rage exposing...: AA.

This is a very basic example of course...

With all due respect, both to Alan Schoonmaker and the legendary David Skalansky, that book is not very good in my opinion. This is just my opinion, and it's very popular so I'm sure others have enjoyed it. It's been a while since I read it though, so maybe it deserves another look to be fair.

I appreciate the advice, and that's a good quote. However, the goal here is to reach out and get a feel for whether it is worthwhile pursuit. I'm presently working on a variety of other manuscripts so there is a significant opportunity cost...

I agree with you on "there ain't a very good book out there for mental gama"
I also use books only for:
Mental game
Maths
That's it!
So I would be interested as well IF it's as good as it should be...
Not written by a guy who spent 6 weeks in a course and calls himself a psychologist!

What would your book say about showing 66 and turning a player you have a great read on into a tilted and more unpredictable state, simply for the sake of your own ego?

How will you go about getting empirical data to provide meaningful improvement at the poker table? I would worry that the book just ends up analogous to a body language expert writing a book, where its only after the fact that they can apply all these micro expressions and the like to show what the person was thinking, when before the fact its more dart throwing than science, even tho they act like its science. Or am i missing something? Seems interesting either way, but also seems even more of an undertaking to do it right, and already would be worried the market is too small.

My book would say that I thought I made a good fold and wanted to show off in front of Barry Greenstein lol.

And that's a reasonable concern given the literature that is available that seems analagous (e.g., Caro's body language book). However, this is the Sigmund Freud of poker literature as it is anecdotal and based on 0 Experiments.

And as for how empirical data would lead to meaningful improvements in one's poker game. Well, the data itself is the basis for theory, and with enough evidence there is ultimately consensus that allows us to make certain generalizations. It then really comes down to how this evidence based knowledge is applied to real situations that poker players experience, and whether it is expressed in a way that is palpable to the reader.

For example, we all understand tilt from a laymans perspective. We know what generally tends to cause it, and we know that it is to be avoided. Books have provided advice as to how to deal with tilt (i.e., certain techniques to avoid it, philosophical accounts on self-control/self-awareness, etc.). However, when you come to understand why poker players tilt (beyond simply the fact that you experience negative affect after a bad beat, cooler, etc.), and the neural mechanisms in play when an individual is tilting, there are valuable insights that come to light that would allow one to more effectively manage tilt by taking certain specific actions in response to this evidence based knowledge. Furthermore, just understanding why tilt at the poker table occurs, and how it is different from say... missing a bunch of shots in a basketball game, is valuable in and of itself when it comes to managing tilt.

As of now, we are exploring some preliminary steps to get the ball rolling and given that we follow through in ultimately publishing this book, we'll surely be able to gauge the level of interest and the extent to which the poker community finds it useful in a practical sense.

Why did you respond to every post but mine? Makes me question a lot of things about the legitimacy of your original post.

Ah, stop being so sensitive, I was playing a few MTTs while responding and missed yours. I did read it, and it was really informative so thanks for that.

That's cool that you're writing a book as well, and I'm curious to know what the twist is so looking forward to seeing it in press. I'm curious though about you mentioning that you're mainly doing this to put it on your C.V. - is that really the case? Seems like a lot of work for something that is not a scholarly pub, no?

As for the topics that you mention have beaten to death, I couldn't agree more, and the issue I have is that most books seem to have a pop psych/self-help style take on these and similar topics that often are quite silly.

As for precisely what theories, phenomena, and psychological constructs we will be focusing on, like you I'm going to pass on going into detail but I can say that it won't be limited to the Personality/Social Psychological orientation (though this will certainly be the predominant area of interest). I gave some examples in my responses above, and being a Psychologist yourself I'm sure you can make some educated guesses as to what you might see in the book.

As for my status in regards to getting my doctorate, I'm presently PhD ABD and should be defending in April, 2009.

I’m assuming that’s a typo and you meant 2019. The dreaded ABD, huh? That’s no fun. Where did you intern? Is your dissertation poker related at all? I tried but my DCT wasn’t having it.

I am really bad at expressing myself through writing but I think you probably misunderstood me.

I don't mean to become a bot or play purely GTO. I am not talking about gameplay in general but about the way humans behave at the tables. For example, most if not all poker players would make a much better decision away from the table or even as an observer compared to the player actually being in the hand. If we have more time and are not involved in something we usually are able to be much more rational and make a better decision.

I notice myself, that I clearly play much different when I am winning compared to when I am losing. I also play differently when running bad. I am pretty sure that applies to every poker player and the question is, how do we combat that?

I think you made a good point about reframing our mind, any specific book or technique you would recommend?

That's not what you'll be telling your future clients if you ever counsel I mean, it takes a ton of time and effort to become noticeably less sensitive.

You'll benefit a lot from setting up a system to track unread posts or messages and let people know asap that you've taken note of the posts, just like the forum reps of poker sites do.

Hi cockpit:

I’m going to use your post to answer the OP’s question. First, we feel that much of the current poker psychology literature is garbage, and this is especially true of those books written by people who are charging high fees for their consultation. So, if the right poker psychology book came along, we would give it a serious look for publication. But with that said, in my opinion, it would only be a small seller.

Best wishes,
Mason

This was what you would call a basic foundation book. It’s not advanced psychology, and was not supposed to be. Dr. John Feeney’s book, [I]Inside the Poker Mind[/], which was published at the same time was the more advanced book.

Mason

I would be interested in writing a (poker) psychology book however I have 0 professional qualifications so I doubt it would ever be published.

To continue the point, in spite of it unlikely being released I am curious (if -the zone -tilt, should not be included) what you/any1 would recommend including.

List please?

EDIT (after reading whole thread): if the above poster implies there are only 2 parts of poker that you need to master (-psychology -the maths of the game,) then if I'm intending to work on a psych. book, I might as well throw in some maths as well.

Would HH's (like Mike Caro added) be sufficient?

Ah, I see and that’s too bad, what was the gist of the research idea if you don’t mind sharing? And yes the dissertation phase is brutal, but I see the light at the end of the tunnel lol

My dissertation work is on smartphones and the extended self. Basically two experiments so far have provided evidence that individuals who are dependent on their smartphones have higher self-efficacy, self reported vitality, and task persistence when they are made to believe their smartphone is charging. Conversely, when made to believe that their battery life is depleting the exact opposite is true.