Hey guys --

Just a couple of comments...

On the inclusion of limit Omaha Hi/Lo and PLO Hi/Lo...
Originally, I was contracted to do an approximately 150 page or so book on PLO Hi. I think about half-way through I decided I was ready to include both limit and pot-limit Hi/Lo, and really what it comes down to is that I wanted to put out the most complete product possible.

Technically speaking, the PLO Hi/Lo section is more than just 36 pages, unless you consider it to be an entirely separate game from PLO Hi or limit Hi/Lo. Personally, I prefer to think of PLO Hi/Lo as a game requiring all of the skills learned in PLO Hi, as well as an understanding of the split-pot dynamics of limit Omaha Hi/Lo. That said, while the 36 pages in the PLO Hi/Lo section probably stand up on their own without reading the rest of the book, I tend to think of everything that came before the final chapter to be part of a greater PLO Hi/Lo book, rather than being 100 or so pages on limit and 36 pages on PLO Hi/Lo, plus a separate PLO Hi book.

In other words, I think you do have to get the limit Hi/Lo game in order to play the PLO Hi/Lo as proficiently as possible. Some might disagree.


On fishies and stuff...
One of things that I really wanted to accomplish with this book was to help reach a critical mass where small stakes PLO games are widespread in the way that $1/$2 and $2/$5 NL games are spread today. I believe the demand for small-stakes PLO games is not limited to the number players who play it today, but rather how many people would play the game if they knew how. And though it is necessary that some of these games may get a bit tougher, I think it would also benefit good players to be able to walk into any cardroom in America (or abroad for that matter) and get a game at stakes he is comfortable with.

Now having said that, even if what I have written actually works and 100% of people who read it are convinced that that is true, few gamblers are disciplined enough not stray from proper playing strategy at times.

For example, let's say the game is $10/$20 limit Omaha Hi/Lo and you are dealt A-4-8-K double-suited on the button (a hand that would cause a great number of mistakes for most players), and three players limp in front of you. Let's also say I told you that a great player would have a positive expectation of $2 to play the hand, a good player would break even, an average player would lose $4, and a bad player would expect to lose $20 every time he plays the hand. Here's the thing: Even if 100% of limit Omaha Hi/Lo players in the world believed that to be true, 99% would play the hand anyway, because 75% think they are good at the game (most of them are wrong), and the other 24% can't help it.

I suspect that at least in the near-mid term -- that is, until we have small-stakes games populated entirely by sharks -- that these small-stakes games will be disproportionately juicy, much the same way that NL games were in the early going.

The first step is making these games a reality, which requires have a few solid players serving as anchors.

-- Jeff

A 156 page book that covers multiple Omaha games?

Sorry, I can't see this being a great book. PLO alone must require more than 150 pages.

Jeff said the PLO section was to be 150 pages. Then, the O8 and PLO8 sections were ADDED. It's 250 - 300 pages. They're densely packed pages.

As I posted elsewhere, the PLO section is 177 pages (actually 158 are strategies and hand quizzes with the remainder being miscellaneous topics including bankroll).

As way of comparison, Slotbottom's book is 240 pages (with 19 of those being a glossary and further reading/website suggestions). Reuben's book is 192 pages. I know how the details on Slotbottom's book because I have it, but I don't have Reuben's book so I don't know the details there.

In the final analysis, your complaint that this is a 156 page book covering multiple Omaha games is wrong. It does cover multiple Omaha games, but it is many, many more pages than 156.

To the author, if this book undergoes a 2nd printing or a revision, I would suggest a title more indicative of what the book covers.

Moreover, even if you just view it as a 150-page PLOH book, it's still a great value. It cost me about $15 in a local B&M store, whereas most of the 2+2 books are $30. I consider the 2+2s generally well worth their price, but you'd need a dense 300-page $30 book to have the same price-per-unit-of-content as Jeff's book, even if the LO8 and PLO8 are useless to you.

The book is slightly unfocused -- in addition to the O8 stuff, the investing quotes are interesting and poker-relevant but probably a bit off-topic. Also, the only bankroll stuff that interests me is comparisons between various forms of Omaha and HE. But the good content is really really good, and I'm very pleased I bought it.

I got this book a few days ago and love it so far. The info is pretty solid and will take a moron player into an intermediate one pretty quickly.

It's not perfect as I found some of the hand example and quiz answers to be a bit off but it gets you thinking about the right things.

Jeff, can you comment on a couple things. First page 88 at the bottom you repeat the same paragraph you had above Second, on page 141/142 in Hand #14, question #4, I am unsure if you really have the right answer here. If the player betting the pot has the nut straight like he most likely does then you have only 11 outs at most and he may actually have some cards near there like a K etc which lowers your number of outs even more and with the other player calling the flop, it is likely he also shares some of your outs. I think this is a clear fold on the turn.

Keep us posted if you find anymore repeating paragraphs. Thanks.

I found another book error it seems. Page 144/145. Hand #16. On page 144, Question 2 states the flop is QsTc9d which has no flush draw. On page 145, Question 3's answer mentions the opponent who called on the button could have been on a flush draw which makes no sense since there wasn't one. The only reasonable hand he could have had that folded was top 2 pair or the same KJ straight (which is less likely as you have it and he may have raised the flop with it) since he isn't now folding a boat and there are no draws on the flop.

Outside of these small errors though I haven't seen much wrong strategically with the book. It has really solidified a lot of my PLO knowledge from personal play. I'd say I like the hand examples a bit more than Reuben's since these hands I'd actually play preflop and his preflop hands are mostly garbage. I'm patient unlike him and can wait for a good hand. Not to say Reuben's book isn't good. I got a lot of value out of it as well.

This is a great book I think. I learned some things from it. It could benefit from a higher retail price, I think the $15 price point ($10.17 on amazon for me) sort of detracts from its value like if you saw Godiva chocolates on sale at Wal-mart.

So you measure something's worth by how much it costs and not how good it is?

Hey Doc T River, you misinterpreted my post. I am sorry about that.

I am commenting on a business decision which is unrelated to the quality of the book. Thanks.

I really fancy PLO but there are no mid limit games at all . If you want to play you need to go to the larger rooms and play high stakes which (95% of us cant afford as a learning curve.
Geez I am so pissed by all this NL mentality that sticks like a fly on sh*t.
I want to play POKER. I have a broad interpretation of what is a poker player.
Geez I`d be happy with a little PLH sometime but it just cant be found.

As you say it is a business decision. Lyle Stuart, the publishing house, prices most of the poker books I have seen from them in a range from $14.95 to $19.95. Most of the books the length of Hwang's book are $15.95.

I bought this book about a week ago. I liked the chapters on Limit o/8 and pot limit o/8. The book is well written and easy to follow. I think it's worth buying.

Hey, just got back from a cruise...

The repeating paragraph is, of course, a printing error. There are a number of them -- I think this might be the function of the publishing process being rushed a bit (the book was originally schedule for an April 2008 release; I turned in the manuscript in July). I'll have a list on my website soon.

I suppose it could go either way on the turn. That said, there are a couple of other possibilities and factors. For example, the blind my have two pair or a set, and he may call. You also have position, and may have implied odds if you make the straight and your opponent bets the river, or if he checks and you can represent a bluff. Alternatively, the board could pair on the river and you could represent having drawn at a full house if the bettor checks the river, so you might have more outs than just making the straight.

Jeff

I made a mistake. I'm thinking there should be a two-flush on the flop but not of your suit. Thanks for the catch.

Jeff

I suppose the major overriding factor will be how well the books sells, but do you foresee a corrected edition which takes care of all these printing errors?

Thought of another question for Jeff. You say the book was not due out until next year originally. Can you share with us what pushed it up?

You're right; I would say the second print run will see those errors corrected. I have no idea when that will happen, but hopefully sooner than later. Actually, I made corrections to the cover last spring which for whatever reason were not made. For example, the flop on the front cover should be Js-Td-3s giving the nut flush draw, rather than Js-Td-3c. Also, the bullet points on the back cover should more prominently indicate that the limit Omaha Hi/Lo and PLO Hi/Lo sections are key features of the book, rather than a footnote.


Nothing on my end. I remember back when I signed the contract, I figured I'd have it done in the spring and it would be ready in time for the WSOP (2007), but the publishing process seems a bit more complicated and prolonged than I thought (usually when I write, the stuff gets published the same day). I was originally supposed to have the manuscript in by May 15, 2007, but then I thought it would be beneficial:

A. to add the limit and PLO Hi/Lo sections
B. to have more practice hands, which would come from the Scotty Nguyen Poker Challenge in Tulsa in late May and during the WSOP in June.

So I ended up finishing it and sending it in late June (I might have said July earlier), and then I had the copy-edited version back to the publisher within the next couple of weeks, and then the page proofs I think late August/early September. But anyway, by the original contract I was suppose to have it done May 15 with a scheduled publishing for April 2008.

I guess somewhere the publisher decided to move up the publishing date to January.

Jeff

How about an errata list for the ones who have already purchased the book?

Jeff said he was going to put one up on his website.

To Jeff, as I have said before, I would change the name given the book covers more than Pot-Limit Omaha. I would suggest Omaha - A Complete Course, but a certain No-Limit Texas Hold'Em author/instructor might get mad at you.

How about The Three Faces Of Omaha?

Ok, it's up:

http://www.jeffhwang.com/plotypos.html


I don't know. I thought about it. I actually had a different idea, but the publisher thought my idea for the title was awful (I've never really been good with titles). Then I suggested maybe putting "Includes Limit and Pot-Limit Omaha Hi/Lo!" in a little bubble on the cover; they said No. At this point it's probably a bit late to change the title; I think the alternative would be to remove the limit Hi/Lo section, except that I think understanding the limit game is helpful (maybe critical) to understanding pot-limit strategy.

Jeff

Jeff,

As long as we're compiling an errata, here's a very minor error that doesn't detract much from readability. On p. 19, 2nd graf:

Sextuple-pot limit Omaha is the wave of the future, but for now it's kind of hard to find it spread. Of course less anal readers just substitute "of the bet" and move on.

Well, your idea is probably better than any I could come up with.

Best I could think of was Omaha - The Hwang Way. You could advertise there are two ways to play Omaha, the wrong way and The Hwang Way.

Now that you have a book that says on the cover "Play the biggest game in town" can we in fact expect to see you in the biggest game in town? ;-)