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Old 02-20-2018, 12:16 PM   #1
tuccotrading
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Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Any reviews for Educa-p0ker's 6-max course published by Upswing Poker?

How about the companion material: Beat the Baron?
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Old 02-20-2018, 05:12 PM   #2
CheekiBreeki
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

stuff was released yesterday and has 50+ videos
how can there be a proper review already unless somebody got the whole course prior to release?
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:28 AM   #3
iamallin
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

He's a feel player. I thought he was some super math heavy gto wizard.

Check out his hand analysis of the hand he played against trueteller with AA. It's available for free.

In the end, his conclusion is truteller wouldn't value bet shove on the turn so he calls it off with AA on kqtx board in a 4 bet pot.

There is no combo counting. No asking where we are in our range. It came down to him saying to truteller "I just don't think you got it man, I call". This is not a critique of his skill. He is clearly a beast. But his thinking is based on logic and intuition not too much math.

Problem with learning from feel players is they have developed this intuition for the game over a long period through complex thought patterns. It's unlikely you will just copy that intuition into your brain from a course.

Can't speak to the course ..still going through it.
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Old 02-21-2018, 02:18 PM   #4
tuccotrading
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Upswing had an encouraging respoused to a question about this course possibly falling far short of the promised over 30 hours of videos (as taken from Upswing Engage on Facebook):


QUESTION:


The times on the Educa-p0ker cash game course outline "seem" to add up to far less than the over 30 hours that was frequently mentioned in the build up.

It was implied these 30-plus hours did not include the Crush the Baron bonus which has no times attached in it's outline.

Are more videos, perhaps Educa-p0ker playing, on the way?

What am I missing?
______

UPSWING REPLY:

spoke to educa and he says there are many more hours of Play & Explains coming in later updates.

Last edited by tuccotrading; 02-21-2018 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 02-23-2018, 09:28 AM   #5
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

This seems like a sick course, I am very interested in it. Is Educa's learning approach is Pio solver based or more like Doug's - no solver and building ranges by himself?
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Old 02-23-2018, 09:46 AM   #6
iamallin
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Solvers. From what I have seen so far, he prefers to understand general solutions and deviations from it rather than precise combo work which was CryptoDoug's style.
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Old 02-23-2018, 04:04 PM   #7
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Any reviews for Beat the Baron?

Im thinking whether to buy now or wait for some more reviews.
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:33 AM   #8
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Take this FWIW. My initial review thus far....

To start, he seems to play an exploitable style with a mix in of solvers to understand spots, but he plays a very solid game. He also does have a very thick accent when explaining poker and it worsens as he speaks fast many times. Yes, Doug claims they put subtitles on these to help but they just used the standard built-in closed captioning in the app, as many of the subtitles have misspellings, miss things, or overall don't make sense. Even with subtitles, it can be difficult to understand at times and you may have to slow down the speed or rewatch to catch everything.

Poker: I've made it through all the preflop stuff and it's a little underwhelming. Each section is more of a high-level overview on his theory or thoughts, bringing in and mentioning solver ranges but there isn't much deep dive, as side from a few situations and saying "a solver would say you can play "x %" here but I may play tighter bc of xyz". It's hard to cram a lot of in-depth into a 15-minute video covering a concept. They released the course without the preflop charts he references a lot that he uses. They may be finally uploaded to the course now and maybe this will improve the preflop. Overall, as long as you've played around PokerSnowie, not much groundbreaking here.

Postflop: I just started this section but I think this is where a lot of value will be (also what I've heard from others who've bought the course). Not far into this yet so I'll have to updated later.

Play and Explain: I've watched two play and explain videos where he reviews a 5knl Zoom session. Overall it was good and he did a good job explaining his rationale, even in hands that he played poorly when he recorded it. His play in these was sub-par with some mistakes but he acknowledges that in review and details why and what he'd do differently.

Crush the Baron: Huge disappointment. For starters, the first two videos are a HUD review, where he just rambles a lot about frequencies of a variety of stats. The large problem is the stats are from HU through 4 max mostly, thus making it hard to get a true feel for 6 max. The next video is on 3 bets oop and he just reviews hands VERY quickly in spots that he 3b oop and checks flops. Not much deep strategy in these and it's very disorganized and feels rushed. Same applies for the video on cbets and probing.... many quick hands clicked through in a replayer but no deep discussion but rather comments like "he likes to x these types of spots" and then on to the next hand (20-30 seconds per hand). Maybe the added content to come will help this course, but as is, it's laughable at a standalone price tag of $500. Very disorganized, no true structure or framework. This course is perfect as a throw in bonus for those who buy the main course.

Conclusion: I may seem a little critical at first but I do see value in the course. I will try to update as I make my way through more content. There should be value and something everyone can learn to make it worth it, but only if you work off the tables to understand and improve your game, which he reiterates the improtance of himself.
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Old 02-24-2018, 06:00 PM   #9
regtard
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

I expected MUCH more.

Quite depressing to tell the truth. Mainly the preflop stuff.

He doesn't go deep into the spots, lack of examples too.

He explains what you need to work on pio but i expected him to do it and show more in depth situations, most of videos have 10-15m.

Basically he tells you what you have to work, what you could work on pio, but when i bought the course i expected him to do the hardwork for me.


OK, lets go to the good part. Even without explaining things in a detailed way, he gives very good concepts that if you work ALONE with solvers you can master, thats all.

Crush the baron is very desorganized, really a joke 500$ on that.
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Old 02-24-2018, 06:07 PM   #10
iamallin
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Inb4 upswing hires otb to teach crush the llinus course. The whole ranking debate with Educa was simply to pave the way for this new product.
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Old 02-25-2018, 04:33 AM   #11
EricDarland
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by regtard View Post
I expected MUCH more.

Quite depressing to tell the truth. Mainly the preflop stuff.

He doesn't go deep into the spots, lack of examples too.

He explains what you need to work on pio but i expected him to do it and show more in depth situations, most of videos have 10-15m.

Basically he tells you what you have to work, what you could work on pio, but when i bought the course i expected him to do the hardwork for me.


OK, lets go to the good part. Even without explaining things in a detailed way, he gives very good concepts that if you work ALONE with solvers you can master, thats all.

Crush the baron is very desorganized, really a joke 500$ on that.

Yep. All of this. Maybe I was expecting too much after Doug's HU course. Doug clearly and concisely explains what to do with every grouping of hands in every branch of the game tree. I need to go back and watch that course. Many of the ideas in that course can be applied to 6 max with a little bit of tweaking.

Preflop is completely worthless if you have access to pio preflop packs that you can find online for cheap and a free trial of snowie.

The outline of the postflop section looks good. Each one of these sections should have been at least an hour long followed by relevant examples. Instead we get 15 minutes of general advice followed by 10-30 minutes of "practical examples" which just seem like a random HH review of hands that took the particular line hes discussing. Often times they are very standard and not very instructive. Sometimes they even contradict the advice he gives.

The OTB part was a huge disappointment as others have said.

This whole thing felt rushed. A 6 max mastery course was the next logical step for Upswing and they managed to get a big name. Educa is definitely one of the top 10 6-max players in the world. This is a good example of how the best players don't always make the best coaches. He has very good intuition about how people play spots that are hard to model in real time. Spots where you have to choose low equity hands to bet on the turn or turn or river spots where you have no "natural" bluffs are going to be played very far from equilibrium. These are the type of spots where he gets his insane winrate and unfortunately it is very difficult to teach. His English is good enough but there were times where I had to turn on the subtitles which was annoying. Some of the videos were mislabeled or missing. Charts weren't ready at the time of the release.

They are going to add some more play and explains and a few videos with Doug. This is a nice touch but I can't see it making the course worth the 1k price tag for me. I wish I had waited until they released the free HH analysis vs Trueteller. I bought into the hype of the OTB analysis add-on and bought the course immediately. I wish I could get a refund.
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Old 02-25-2018, 10:13 AM   #12
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricDarland View Post
I wish I had waited until they released the free HH analysis vs Trueteller. I bought into the hype of the OTB analysis add-on and bought the course immediately. I wish I could get a refund.
I was considering buying the course but after I have seen HH vs Trueteller analysis decided to wait for some feedback and seems that it was a wise choice. FWIW I think you can get your money back, their T&C's state that you can refund in 30 days with no questions asked.
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Old 02-25-2018, 02:50 PM   #13
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlipper View Post
I was considering buying the course but after I have seen HH vs Trueteller analysis decided to wait for some feedback and seems that it was a wise choice. FWIW I think you can get your money back, their T&C's state that you can refund in 30 days with no questions asked.
My follow up is that after giving the course more time, it hasn't improved. Even the post-flop videos are 10-15 mins max and are very disorganized and have no general framework to work through the concepts. I think the disappointment boils down to a few factors:

1. Educa isn't the best at articulating his thoughts in an organized manner.
2. The course is very disorganized once you get into the videos themselves. To much just jumping into tons of PioSolver spots without giving theory, etc.
3. Andres English isnt the best and makes it difficult at times, especially when he talks fast.
4. Overhyped - Especially the "Crush the Baron", which appers to have been their marketing ploy. At $50 this would be overpriced, let alone $500. This course have no framework as advertised and was extremly disorganized.
5. It could have drastically benefited from some quality review or if Doug sat down and helped him map out a framework for each topic.

With that said, its a huge disappointment for the price. The potential was there, but very high level and needs much more focus and attention/restructuring/more depth. Some value to be had but definitely not above the $200 price point at this point in time, especially when a lot of material is still missing.

I'll be trying to request a refund for this via Upswings 30 day policy and I'll let you know how it goes.
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Old 02-25-2018, 04:23 PM   #14
iamallin
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

It is hard to correctly assess the value of such a course.

Most players buying this course are already advanced players who have access to solvers and study the game a lot. It is no surprise then that this course will only be marginally helpful to these players. But such marginal increase in knowledge when you are already an advanced player can still be very valuable.

After a certain advanced level of proficiency, every small jump in skill and knowledge takes much longer than before. And when you are playing 25/50 and above shorthanded, even the smallest of edges can result in big profits.

I think we should keep this in mind when evaluating how useful this course is.
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Old 02-25-2018, 05:01 PM   #15
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamallin View Post
It is hard to correctly assess the value of such a course.

Most players buying this course are already advanced players who have access to solvers and study the game a lot. It is no surprise then that this course will only be marginally helpful to these players. But such marginal increase in knowledge when you are already an advanced player can still be very valuable.

After a certain advanced level of proficiency, every small jump in skill and knowledge takes much longer than before. And when you are playing 25/50 and above shorthanded, even the smallest of edges can result in big profits.

I think we should keep this in mind when evaluating how useful this course is.
These are good points. I think what many here who bought the course would argue is that the course is very vague and high level (how much can you fit into a 10 min video covering a scenario?). The way the course is marketed vs the reality seems to be the difference. Most of the videos just show a example and click throug a few solvers, but he's all over the place. Even less advanced will struggle to sort out the valuable stuff to learn. It's more of a "how to study poker" than broken deep down discussion, as it was advertised.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:29 AM   #16
SarahBear
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

This new course is the GOAT. Complaints are from people who are just not smart enough to get it. Poker courses for a G arent as exciting as 4k TVs, thats why these beta-boys are bitching.
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Old 02-26-2018, 01:06 AM   #17
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Hi Educa
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Old 02-26-2018, 08:15 PM   #18
impresyw
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaYSMacKed View Post
My follow up is that after giving the course more time, it hasn't improved. Even the post-flop videos are 10-15 mins max and are very disorganized and have no general framework to work through the concepts. I think the disappointment boils down to a few factors:

1. Educa isn't the best at articulating his thoughts in an organized manner.
2. The course is very disorganized once you get into the videos themselves. To much just jumping into tons of PioSolver spots without giving theory, etc.
3. Andres English isnt the best and makes it difficult at times, especially when he talks fast.
4. Overhyped - Especially the "Crush the Baron", which appers to have been their marketing ploy. At $50 this would be overpriced, let alone $500. This course have no framework as advertised and was extremly disorganized.
5. It could have drastically benefited from some quality review or if Doug sat down and helped him map out a framework for each topic.

With that said, its a huge disappointment for the price. The potential was there, but very high level and needs much more focus and attention/restructuring/more depth. Some value to be had but definitely not above the $200 price point at this point in time, especially when a lot of material is still missing.

I'll be trying to request a refund for this via Upswings 30 day policy and I'll let you know how it goes.
where does it say u can get a refund? i didnt see it in t&s
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Old 02-26-2018, 08:30 PM   #19
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

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Originally Posted by impresyw View Post
where does it say u can get a refund? i didnt see it in t&s
https://www.upswingpoker.com/terms-a...rivacy-policy/

Refund/Return Policy
We offer a 30 day refund/return policy, no questions asked. You may request a refund within 30 days of purchase. You must contact us by submitting a request through https://www.upswingpoker.com/contact-us/ or by emailing us at support@upswingpoker.com within 30 days of your purchase. If you purchased a physical product that we shipped to you, you may be required to return the entire product back to us before we process your refund.

Here's to hoping that they honor it. Very disappointed in the end product compared to the marketing/hype and I'm clearly not alone from other reviews.
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Old 02-27-2018, 06:41 PM   #20
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

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Originally Posted by StaYSMacKed View Post
https://www.upswingpoker.com/terms-a...rivacy-policy/

Refund/Return Policy
We offer a 30 day refund/return policy, no questions asked. You may request a refund within 30 days of purchase. You must contact us by submitting a request through https://www.upswingpoker.com/contact-us/ or by emailing us at support@upswingpoker.com within 30 days of your purchase. If you purchased a physical product that we shipped to you, you may be required to return the entire product back to us before we process your refund.

Here's to hoping that they honor it. Very disappointed in the end product compared to the marketing/hype and I'm clearly not alone from other reviews.
Can't complain about their refund policy. Just got this email today.

Good Morning,

I have cancelled your membership and refunded your payment.

You should see that refund within 5-10 business days.
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:58 PM   #21
StaYSMacKed
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

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Originally Posted by EricDarland View Post
Can't complain about their refund policy. Just got this email today.

Good Morning,

I have cancelled your membership and refunded your payment.

You should see that refund within 5-10 business days.
Same boat. Happy with the way they handled it. I also imagine they got quite a few request as the overall reviews I've seen are very consistent that the potential was there but it's a disorganized mess.
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Old 02-27-2018, 11:48 PM   #22
Pairadiddle
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

It sucks to hear all these bad reviews. I am just getting back into poker since black friday and was looking forward to buying the course. Does anyone have any other suggestions where I should start?
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Old 02-28-2018, 11:12 AM   #23
impresyw
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

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Originally Posted by Pairadiddle View Post
It sucks to hear all these bad reviews. I am just getting back into poker since black friday and was looking forward to buying the course. Does anyone have any other suggestions where I should start?
Tbh there are a lot of positive reviews in the facebook group of the course. But to me those reviews at 2+2 are more in depth.
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Old 02-28-2018, 01:02 PM   #24
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

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Tbh there are a lot of positive reviews in the facebook group of the course. But to me those reviews at 2+2 are more in depth.
I don’t think people inside a FB group for the course are going to be critical of it. There is 0 denying Educa is a great player. There is also no denying the course is simply disorganized and he just be poor at explaining things in a organized and practical manner. The video alone on post flop multiway lots is like 8 mins with a situation up in PokerSnowie that he never goes through. He just essentially says for 8 mins “multiway is tricky and lot of variables and factors” without any strategy. This is a consistent theme. On paper the course looks amazing. In reality it lacks depth and construction that encourages learning.

My main gripe was in the post flop section he has up like 8 solver hands and just immediately starts firing thought. Doesn’t take time to review what the flop or board is, what his theory is, etc. More just clicking the solver ranges fast saying we can bet “x” and x at times.

The hardest part about a purchase is admitting it wasn’t money well spent. At the price tag, better off spending $100/ month at a training site unless the course is completely revamped and has more structure to each topic in a logic and planned process.
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Old 03-01-2018, 01:22 PM   #25
Educa-P0ker.
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Re: Educa-p0ker 6-max course, reviews

I want to start off by saying that I feel that most people really liked the course and that I am sorry some of the guys that bought it didn’t like it as much. We are learning from all kinds of constructive feedback and we are trying to improve the course in the following areas:

1. Length of the course: we will be adding different videos, and some of them are being released right now. The course will be 30 hours as advertised. There will be more Play and Explains at different stakes, more postflop videos including theory ones and practical ones.

2. English is not smooth: we understand that I am not an English native. You can check on youtube how good it is. At some points, given I am speaking fast, it might be tougher to understand. However, the Upswing team realized that and they added subtitles to all the videos. I consider it´s a very good idea. Poker is a very technical topic and I think it should be easy for you to follow even if it´s not the most pleasing experience.

3. Preflop is too simple: I agree with the following statement “Preflop is much simpler than postflop”. I don´t consider myself an extremely good preflop player. I’ve always considered the driving force for success in poker is efficiency. I didn’t want to spend too much time on some topics that were not so important to your winrate.

If you look at the videos, in my poker career for preflop, I have used superficially solvers to understand the preflop levers, make my own ranges and try to avoid most of the possible mistakes. For me, preflop is the base for the following streets and it’s the street were we are trying to avoid mistakes rather than becoming a very accurate player. I think that using Pokersnowie is more practical than Piosolver in many spots,even if it´s much less accurate, and in some spots common sense is superior to both solvers.

I understand that some people might complain about it but I think that, given my success at the tables, it was not an issue to become a very big winner even in toughest lineups on the planet. In my opinion, preflop accuracy in NLH is much less important than in PLO or FL games for instance.

4. Lack of clarity: I can understand some of the complaints here. You can go to a video and two different things might happen:

a. Videos don´t manatain some kind of studying method: I might use different resources or methods to work on that specific spot. However, I consider these more complete than just finding one way to study poker. For me, poker is a very complex thinking process, much more often than not a non-linear one that goes in a circular fashion and you will need many different kinds of inputs. For example, using a “method” is not the way you can become creative. As well, in every single spot you can give more or less weight to one kind of reasoning over the other.

b. Videos might be too fast: for example, I often don´t describe boards or situations. I have been teaching poker for long time and I was never told these kind of things. However, I can understand it because besides me going too fast over the spots sometimes, there is also my imperfect English which leads to you needing to rewind often. This is something we are working to avoid happening again. I go slower and clearer in the latest videos, although, as with the English problem, the lack of clarity is not something that I can change for the first videos, so I ask you for some patience while going through the course. The things that I am trying to explain are very complex and technical in nature and they cover tough spots many times. You will find a lot of good material, but it´s something very technical, and I am a technician, not a speaker. If you really want to improve, you WILL find what you need. I compare it to buying the best technical book compared to a best seller book.

I would also recommend having a little bit of patience at the moment as we round out the course. To anyone who is upset, contact Upswing and we will make sure you are taken care of.
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