I had to smile at this one, as I am sure that Dr. Cardner feels the same way towards you and the 'hot shower' nonsense

Hmmmm take your own advice???

Does the book really say tournament players don't tilt?

It feels like a werewolf game broke out in this thread.

In b4 Mason defends another indefensible position by saying "that's not what I said."

Jonathan and Fedor crushed this thread.

Incidentally some on Twitter have suggested that tilt is a worse problem in cash games than tournaments and is worse in rebuy tournaments than freeze outs.

Those points are undoubtedly true but it's highly unlikely that even a casual observer of tournament play would suggest that tournament players don't tilt.

I would guess that there's one major tilt off in every televised WSOP episode. I realize these are edited for TV, but for the jostled part these are highly trained experienced players.

There have been incredible final table bubble blowup a over the years. I can't remember names, but there was the guy Darvin Noon busted, calling off with a baby flush on a paired board, and the guy who got Hollywood-jammed on by the bitti st guy at the table and called off with KQ.

Daniel Negrwanu gave McKeehen 3 streets of value with QJ on Jxx x x when A. His hand is exactly what it looks like B. Joe has a very low bluff frequency in that spot (why try to bluff a station when you have all the chips?) C. Daniel beats none of Joe's value range.

I believe Jared Tendler would call it "injustice tilt," based on Daniel's reaction: "You can't have it every time!"

Except that the "hot shower nonsense," and yes it's nonsense, is exactly what she said. You can see it all here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...32&postcount=1

The reason this has significance, is that the moment I heard it, I immediately knew that the additional material I needed to finish Real Poker Psychology was most likely available if I would read her book.

Mason

Hi Moose:

Not quite. There's a chapter called "Being a Tournament Star" and here is a direct quote from the chapter:

Notice that it says it's difficult and not that it never happens.So you'll need to read the book to see exactly what the reasons and appropriate explanations are.

Best wishes,
Mason

In summation, Mason quotes blogs/interviews with Dr. Cardner where she says she didn't advise taking a hot shower and uses it as proof that she did advise taking a hot shower.

Mason, a few questions:

1. Do you have any academic credentials or professional that would make you qualified to speak on psychological matters?

2. Do you have any personal experience playing in high stakes tournaments? If not, what would lead you (or any of us) to believe you are qualified to speak about the mindset of tournament players and/or the likelihood of them tilting? It is actually very easy to lose quite a few pots and not be out of the tournament. It is also possible to tilt in one single hand and be out of a tournament, whereas in a cash game, tilting off in one hand can be expensive but not a disaster. For example, some players overcome tilt problems by walking away from the table, having a meal, resting, meditating -- all things that you say (correct me if I'm wrong) have no impact on how you play hands. In a tournament, you don't have that luxury.

3. How many hours experience do you have in playing high stakes no-limit cash games, or any big bet games?

[QUOTE=baudib1;48994101] Again, that's not exactly what the book says. See my post above.

In Real Poker Psychology, there is a state which I call "Pseudo Tilt" which is not tilt because a player can still think rationally. In the book, I link pseudo tilt to the desire to finish ahead for the playing session, and when you see pseudo tilt, this is almost always the cause.

But in reality, and this is not in the book, pseudo tilt can be caused by basically anything that the player has decided is now more important than always playing with a positive explanation. So Tendler's "injustice tilt," and some of his other tilts, I would say are not tilt at all since rational decisions are still being made by the player in question, but actually come under the heading of pseudo tilt. However, keep in mind that when a player is in the pseudo tilt state, even though his thinking is rational, which would not be the case if he was in real tilt, he can still play quite poorly.

Mason

Pseudo tilt is not tilt at all even if the player is playing quite poorly?

WHAT?
You totally mix 2 things here...
Tilting only 1 hand is not a disaster in any case, whether it is in a tourney or in cash game.
But if your tilt can last more than one hand and influenced you for future hands , the danger in a cash game far outweigh the tournaments.
Have you ever heard of a bankroll or moving up in stakes while on tilt...

You tilt in many hands and you are of the tournament, big deal.
You tilt too much in a cash game and you might be off 30% of your bankroll if not more !
Now that is a problem!
Unless obviously the tournament you play cost 50% of your bankroll...

So a player who has good fundamentals but is tired or not at full concentration (states that are proven to adversely affect decision making) won't play hands differently due to his high skill set.

But a player who is thinking rationally is not only capable of playing hands differently but can play "quite poorly".

Pseudo tilt. I can't see this nebulous label catching on sorry.

It is actually quite possible to lose huge equity in a single tournament hand, such as the examples given. For instance, bubbling the ME FT with a decent stack and a marginal hand is probably a larger mistake than 99.9% of poker players will ever make in their lives.

Here are two direct quotes from the "Introduction" of Real Poker Psychology.

I'm not a tournament player. As for being qualified you'll need to read the chapter "Being a Tournament Star." By the way, remember the Harrington on Hold 'em tournament books. They were a sensation when they came out, and I worked many hundreds of hours on these books including giving extensive comments on the original text to Dan Harrington and Bill Robertie, and many of these comments were incorporated into the published versions.

You'll need to read the book. Oh I forgot, You're going to save $22.46. Well, it can be purchased through this link:

http://www.professionalpoker.com/Aut...ker-Psychology

at a lower price.

As has been stated by me many times, I've played a lot of no-limit hold 'em and for several years, while our company was working on no-limit books, that's the only game I played, and the large majority was played at $2-$5 no-limit since that is the level the material in our cash games books is usually targeted at.

When asked this question by someone like yourself, it's almost always designed as a put down. But there is something you should keep in mind, and it's that I think it's fair to say that 2+2 has done more to revolutionize how poker is played than any other person/group, and I've played an important role in that. Or put another way, even though you may not realize this since our work has influenced many other people, if it wasn't for my own work, you would probably be a far less knowledgeable poker player than you are today.

MM

.




Tournament players are more than capable of punting off on cash or high stakes husngs tables when titled also.

Mason:
Editing a few tournament books (even if they were a terrific success) 8-10 years ago does not make you qualified to talk about current tournament play or the state of mind of the player pool.

Do you see the problem in comparing your credentials/credibility in this area to people like Jonathan and Fedor? Do you think anyone in the poker world would take your advice over theirs?

That's not to say that you are incapable of producing work of value in this area but your lack of credentials + your responses here + your trollish attacks on Dr. Cardner raise real questions as to your competency.

Enough. Despite her claims I have made no trolling attacks on Cardner. But I did, in my opinion, find her book to be extremely poor, and I have a right to express that. And notice that when I do this, specific examples are given with concise explanations.

You need to understand that Cardner made the first nasty post:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...8&postcount=17

And it's always been my policy to respond strongly when something like this happens.

And one other thing. You're making comments about a book you know nothing about. There's only one short chapter, just over two pages, that refers to tournaments.

MM

Hi Teddy:

Okay. It is mentioned in the book that many good tournament players do poorly in cash games.

Best wishes?
Mason

Hi,

It was more in response to the poster who suggested that cash players are more susceptible to tilt due to the availability of higher stakes games,


Im genuinely intregued however by your assertions that a lack of concentratation / tiredness / poor diet etc is unlikely to lead to a player playing hands differently. Especially when contrastred with this rather loosely defined mental state of psuedo tilt, where players can be thinking rationally yet not only play hands differently but play them poorly.

You make the juxtaposition between poker and sport saying the latter involves timing as well as decison making and the former merely involves decisions, but it seems to me that things like tiredness have been repeatedly shown to adversely affect decision making. I'm wondering how you can hold the opinion that rational players can play sub-optimally yet tired players are unlikely to.

Dude, he's got a math degree and was involved in publishing Harrington On Hold'em. Don't question him.

We were not talking about SnG but even so, the cost certainly is still smaller, each hand in a cash game crippled you bankroll, so bad decisions still under tilt is far more damageable than in a SnG because even with a lot of poor decisions, HUSnG or any other SnG you play , it is not cash untill you actually loose the SnG and always have time to win it back in some hands later while you over come your tilt issues.

You can crippled a lot of a bankroll in 10 hands in a cash game while the same 10 hands can still be in only or 2 or 3 SnG which is far less of a problem.

Even if i grant you this , the situation you talk is rare while in cash game it can happen everyday...

And the "big" tournament you talk about are a very rare situation and those who can afford to play them, certainly some of them play very high stakes so i would be surprise it is a mistake worst than 99.9 % of their lives.

It is possible a "fish" got there and find himself in this situation but this exact situation might happen 1 in 100, imo statistically you cannot use such a rare occurrence to make an equivalent statement has the damage done in cash game due tilt is the same has for a tournament player in general...

Btw i am not defending MM ( i agree sometimes M.Mason lack diplomacy) but both authors have valid points and almost nothing can be more uncertain than psychology trying to prove something.
Yes , increasing the well being of someone might help to accept a situation better that can cause tilt ( good diet, sleep, good physical shape, confidence, etc.) but even better is to understand the situation to it's full extent to prevent tilt as well (like variance and other stuff).
Personally, i often find myself or others to be in a anger state because they lack the knowledge of their bad luck, accident,etc which if they had better knowledge of why they fell in that state , it would help accepting the unwanted situation easier and tone that their frustration, tilt or w.e bad feeling they suffers.
"May the force be with you..."

The point i was making was that tournament players can and do register for high stakes cash or sngs when tilted

How much free traffic to his sites and books does Jonathan Little get from the Two Plus Two forums?

Seems like he's owning you financially in the final analysis even if he and his co-authors lose to you in the debates here,

Just curious how much marketing equity he gets by you literally giving him and his co-author controversy buzz. Controversy sells as Donald Trump can tell you.

I'm not trying to make an equivalent statement. The point is that in tournaments, people can and do make mistakes that cost them many many many BIs of value, so the loss is not just in the cost of playing that tournament.

Forget the Main Event final table, there are mistakes made in probably every tournament near the end that cost someone at least 2x the tourney's BI due to "tilt" or whatever else you want to call it.