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 05-29-2013, 05:32 PM #76 halsted grinder   Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 401 re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Matthew, Excellent book. Do you have a suggestion for implementing ratio/percentage randomizers for a GTO beginner? Something that can be used without going through the math/combos/flopzilla, as in, you would come up with the right combos afterword to "bluff (or whatever ratio you are trying to hit)" but you know the basic theory and want to try it in game. Ex: Trying to maintain a 2-1 bluff/value raise ratio on the flop IP, or Bluffing river 30% So, guessing and trying to give more examples you could use things like: Suite example: If you are trying to do something 25% of the time randomly you could pick a suite and a side i.e any spade on the right side of my hand - JcTs - Combo example: Pocket pairs are easy to count and match up with sets nicely. So if you are looking for a one to one ratio you could pick pocket pairs to match up with your sets pretty easily i.e. use pockets twos (6 combos to match up with the two top sets ( 6 combos) Time example: Very basic if you need to do something 30% of the time you could use a clock - say first 20 minutes of the hour you make the move if its 1:37 you wouldn't make that move. Last edited by halsted; 05-29-2013 at 05:49 PM.
05-29-2013, 08:51 PM   #77
meshanti

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Desperate Dan Appreciation Society
Posts: 975
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by elliott44 My question has to do with the applicability of this book to the live 1-2 NL games as they are played today on the East Coast...

05-29-2013, 09:38 PM   #78
Matthew Janda

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 936
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by halsted Matthew, Excellent book. Do you have a suggestion for implementing ratio/percentage randomizers for a GTO beginner? Something that can be used without going through the math/combos/flopzilla, as in, you would come up with the right combos afterword to "bluff (or whatever ratio you are trying to hit)" but you know the basic theory and want to try it in game. Ex: Trying to maintain a 2-1 bluff/value raise ratio on the flop IP, or Bluffing river 30% So, guessing and trying to give more examples you could use things like: Suite example: If you are trying to do something 25% of the time randomly you could pick a suite and a side i.e any spade on the right side of my hand - JcTs - Combo example: Pocket pairs are easy to count and match up with sets nicely. So if you are looking for a one to one ratio you could pick pocket pairs to match up with your sets pretty easily i.e. use pockets twos (6 combos to match up with the two top sets ( 6 combos) Time example: Very basic if you need to do something 30% of the time you could use a clock - say first 20 minutes of the hour you make the move if its 1:37 you wouldn't make that move.
If you are actually indifferent to taking one of two lines (so the EV of both lines are the same), then it doesn't matter what you do. I'd take the line you feel like taking, or whatever the line you feel is easiest to play.

For most everything else, you need to make sure you're bluff raising or calling with the right types of hands. So bluff raising with a missed pocket pair on the turn such as 22 (for six combos) to balance six raises with sets is going to be a very bad idea, since missed pocket pairs usually work pretty terribly as a bluff randomizer.

Let me know if I misunderstood what you were asking.

05-30-2013, 10:02 AM   #79
halsted
grinder

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 401
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Matthew Janda If you are actually indifferent to taking one of two lines (so the EV of both lines are the same) For most everything else, you need to make sure you're bluff raising or calling with the right types of hands. Let me know if I misunderstood what you were asking.
The second part is what I am trying to get at.

Say we are in a spot were we need to bluff the river with a certain amount of combos related to our value combos. How do we pick the bluff combos out WITHOUT going through the hand via flopzilla (llke you did at the end of your book) and pick some randomly, at first, before we go through the hand post session and find the best combos to bluff with?

So I am playing a GTO bot and get to the river with a losing hand, he checks to me, what is a quick thought process for getting those betting combos I need to make him indifferent to calling? How do I get to those combos on the fly (within reason)?

Does this make sense, maybe I am way off here. This is an example to get at my point not an actual situation.

05-30-2013, 11:02 AM   #80
Matthew Janda

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 936
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by halsted The second part is what I am trying to get at. Say we are in a spot were we need to bluff the river with a certain amount of combos related to our value combos. How do we pick the bluff combos out WITHOUT going through the hand via flopzilla (llke you did at the end of your book) and pick some randomly, at first, before we go through the hand post session and find the best combos to bluff with? So I am playing a GTO bot and get to the river with a losing hand, he checks to me, what is a quick thought process for getting those betting combos I need to make him indifferent to calling? How do I get to those combos on the fly (within reason)? Does this make sense, maybe I am way off here. This is an example to get at my point not an actual situation.
For the flop, just bluff raise hands which don't have much showdown value but they retain their equity well. So 8d7d on a Kc 6c 3d board, for example. The ratios are just rules of thumb anyways, and as long as it's a spot that's reasonable to raise and you're using the right type of hand you should overall get pretty good results.

On the river, raise with hands that block hands in your opponent's bet/calling range without blocking many hands in their bet/folding range.

The important thing to take from the book and the ratios is to bluff raise the flop a lot, and to not bluff raise the river very much. Don't obsess about trying to get the perfect amount of combos which isn't even possible (on the flop) or reasonable (on the river).

 05-31-2013, 05:40 AM #81 PutMyRobeOnRITE journeyman     Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: xxx Posts: 250 re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Question guys.... Lets say we open btn, bb defends by calling, he checks to us on a flop of K85 We check back with this range: KK-JJ,KQo-K9o,K7o,AQs,KQs-K9s,K7s-K6s,K4s-K2s (91 combos) Then Villain 2/3 pot and 2/3 river... Do we still defend 60% of the above range on turn? (54.6 combos).... KK,KQo-K9o,KQs-K9s,K7s Then 60% on River? (32.76 Combos) KK,KQo-KTo,KQs-KJs (This is actually 36 combos) I guess we can chop out KK on a somewhat wet turn. -Thanks.
 05-31-2013, 04:15 PM #82 halsted grinder   Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 401 re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Whats your standard 3bet in bbs vs each of these open sizing's from the button? 2bbs. 2.2bbs and 2.5bbs
05-31-2013, 06:31 PM   #83
Matthew Janda

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 936
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by PutMyRobeOnRITE Question guys.... Lets say we open btn, bb defends by calling, he checks to us on a flop of K85 We check back with this range: KK-JJ,KQo-K9o,K7o,AQs,KQs-K9s,K7s-K6s,K4s-K2s (91 combos) Then Villain 2/3 pot and 2/3 river... Do we still defend 60% of the above range on turn? (54.6 combos).... KK,KQo-K9o,KQs-K9s,K7s Then 60% on River? (32.76 Combos) KK,KQo-KTo,KQs-KJs (This is actually 36 combos) I guess we can chop out KK on a somewhat wet turn. -Thanks.
I'd first just point out that your flop checking range looks really, really strong. To the point where you can't even bluff effectively if the opponent checks the turn or river to you and you want to value bet.

Whether or not you defend 60% depends on if you think the opponent should be able to profitably bet ATC. His range should be weaker than yours on the flop, so I don't think defending 60% on the turn should be too difficult, but you can't know what the correct defending frequency is.

05-31-2013, 11:28 PM   #84
PutMyRobeOnRITE
journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: xxx
Posts: 250
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 I'd first just point out that your flop checking range looks really, really strong. To the point where you can't even bluff effectively if the opponent checks the turn or river to you and you want to value bet.
I know we should only checkback KK if the villain will overbet turns because our range is mostly capped as you said in the book....I checked back all the Kx, even KQ because of the can't go 3 streets reasoning and villain won't felt all of his weaker Kx. So do you think I should start out betting the KQ's, KJ's and KK, or does it look like I totally screwed up that checking back range, lol. TY

06-01-2013, 12:34 AM   #85
Matthew Janda

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 936
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by PutMyRobeOnRITE Thanks for the reply Matt I know we should only checkback KK if the villain will overbet turns because our range is mostly capped as you said in the book....I checked back all the Kx, even KQ because of the can't go 3 streets reasoning and villain won't felt all of his weaker Kx. So do you think I should start out betting the KQ's, KJ's and KK, or does it look like I totally screwed up that checking back range, lol. TY
Off the top of my head and assuming the turn and river blank, I would at least bet all three streets with KT and quite likely K9.

06-01-2013, 10:43 AM   #86
Tropics
grinder

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Behind a mouse
Posts: 524
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by sp1ke36 Should be getting the book today. Really looking forward to it. I'm just wondering how it might help someone who plays live full ring games at the 1/2, 2/5 level. I can't play online so I'm hoping I get some benefit out of the book that I can apply in the games I can actually play in. Any thoughts on this?
What do you mean by you can't play online? If you have a computer with an internet connection, even if you still live in Chicago, then you can play on several sites.

06-01-2013, 10:56 PM   #87
PutMyRobeOnRITE
journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: xxx
Posts: 250
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Matthew Janda Off the top of my head and assuming the turn and river blank, I would at least bet all three streets with KT and quite likely K9.
Awesome Matt, thx!

06-02-2013, 09:51 PM   #88

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,153
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Matthew Janda On the river, raise with hands that block hands in your opponent's bet/calling range without blocking many hands in their bet/folding range.
Eaxamples?

 06-03-2013, 04:49 AM #89 Sofistika stranger   Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 13 re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Is that a mistake on the bottom of page 41? a player cannot fold more than 40-46 percent of his 3betting range to most of his opponents 4bet s. I guess it should be that a player cannot fold more than 54-60 % of his 3b range.
06-03-2013, 10:58 AM   #90
Matthew Janda

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 936
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sofistika Is that a mistake on the bottom of page 41? a player cannot fold more than 40-46 percent of his 3betting range to most of his opponents 4bet s. I guess it should be that a player cannot fold more than 54-60 % of his 3b range.
I think it's correct as is (that's the way it's written on page 38 as well).

Another way to say it would be "If you defend only by 4-betting, you can fold to a 3-bet around 54 to 60 percent of the time."

Last edited by Matthew Janda; 06-03-2013 at 11:03 AM.

06-03-2013, 10:59 AM   #91
Matthew Janda

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 936
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
There are examples of hands with good removal effects later in the book, but it's rare to find a hand that blocks only hands in the opponent's bet-folding range but no hands in the opponent's bet-calling range. Usually, you'll at least block a few bet-folding hands as well.

06-03-2013, 11:42 AM   #92
Sofistika
stranger

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 13
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Matthew Janda I think it's correct as is (that's the way it's written on page 38 as well). Another way to say it would be "If you defend only by 4-betting, you can fold to a 3-bet around 54 to 60 percent of the time."
now im totally confused about your last sentence.In page 38 it says that if you defend by 4beting you need to defend 25-30% of the time,so folding 70-75% and not 54-60..?.:/

 06-03-2013, 12:10 PM #93 Sofistika stranger   Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 13 re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts I guess you mean that if you only defending by 5 betting, then you can fold to their 4bets 54-60%
06-03-2013, 12:21 PM   #94
Matthew Janda

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 936
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sofistika now im totally confused about your last sentence.In page 38 it says that if you defend by 4beting you need to defend 25-30% of the time,so folding 70-75% and not 54-60..?.:/
Yeah, I think you're right now.

Page 41 should say "If a player defends against 4-bets by only 5-betting or folding, they must 5-bet 40 to 46 percent of the time when facing a 4-bet. In other words, they cannot fold more than 50 to 54 percent of the time or else the opponent will make an immediate profit."

Sorry about the mistake and let me know if that clears things up.

 06-03-2013, 02:09 PM #95 Sofistika stranger   Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 13 re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts yea.everything clear now!
06-03-2013, 03:03 PM   #96
Matthew Janda

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 936
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sofistika yea.everything clear now!
Great!

Sorry about the mistake, as I know it's a huge pain when you're trying to learn from a book and something in the book turns out to be wrong. There's just a lot of numbers and reasonably difficult concepts in this book, so despite having it edited probably 6 or more times combined (between Mason, David, myself, and anyone else I sent sections to for input or read over it at TwoPlusTwo) we still missed some stuff. Please continue to point out anything else you find that looks incorrect and I'll try to answer any questions you may have.

 06-03-2013, 05:23 PM #97 MidniteToker grinder   Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 604 re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts I'm literally checking Amazon 2-3 times per day for the kindle edition... crazy I know. I might actually need to order this one in a hard copy just to sate me till the kindle comes out. Love my ereader, love to carry my library with me when I'm out of town without having to cram pounds of books in my bags.
 06-03-2013, 06:19 PM #98 mmmutiny enthusiast   Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 91 re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Would it be possible to start a thread (or have some other suitable resource) solely for corrections to the book please? I'm following this thread, but it'd be easier if corrections (and corrections only) were all in one easy to find place. Thanks, mmm
06-03-2013, 06:33 PM   #99
Matthew Janda

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 936
re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mmmutiny Would it be possible to start a thread (or have some other suitable resource) solely for corrections to the book please? I'm following this thread, but it'd be easier if corrections (and corrections only) were all in one easy to find place. Thanks, mmm
I wouldn't mind updating it in my blog (or making one post here) once there are a few more mistakes that are found. Right now most of the mistakes seem to be in the pre-flop section, and while I hope no more are found in all likelihood they'll be a couple more once more people get the e-book.

I'm also willing to keep updating concepts and ranges as people ask about them (keeping in mind it's just my best guess) the same way I did for the non-polarized 3-betting ranges, so I can put that in the post too.

 06-03-2013, 08:15 PM #100 halsted grinder   Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 401 re: Applications of No-Limit Hold 'em Review and Discussion - See 1st post for Updated Concepts Matthew, What advice would you give on working out hand ranges (like you did in the back of the book) on our own? I tried flopzilla, poker ranger and combonator but none of them do what we need or rather they do not work like how it is shown to break down a hand in the back of the book. Combonator helped the most giving quick combo totals (for a free program). What do you suggest? One of the programs and notepad to work out the rest? Maybe I am not using the correctly..

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