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 03-22-2011, 03:02 AM #176 poker_apprentice centurion   Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 197 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion And as Pökerfu pointed out, the correct formula must be: EV = ((r-a)/(r))*(\$50) + (a/r)*((c/t)*((2015)*(EQ)-890)-((t-c)/(t))*(110)) On way to see this, is by using the formula for calling an AI given on page 65.
 03-22-2011, 10:41 AM #177 xpxinvxpy stranger   Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 11 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion Following up on Poker_Apprentice's confirmation of Pokerfu's observation that the formula should use 890 instead of 1000, I have rerun the numbers for the table of page 198. The first column is what's in the book and is wrong. The second column is correct calculations based on the wrong formula using 1000 that's in the book. The third column is what the book should use in the next printing, since it's based on the correct formula using 890. HTML Code: ```book 1000 890 ==== ==== ==== -29.82 -22.40 47.60 6.00 7.50 117.50 27.18 27.65 137.65 -18.49 10.28 56.95 3.33 48.53 121.87 15.76 17.32 40.65 26.67 29.12 65.78 24.36 25.26 39.26 32.40 33.58 51.18```
 03-22-2011, 10:54 AM #178 Pökerfu enthusiast   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: winning by misclicks Posts: 53 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion Many thx @poker_apprentice and xpxinvxpy! Equation for the table on page 198 for the first line: ((0.15-0.15)/0.15)*50+(0.15/0.15)*((0.07/0.11*(2015*0.51-1000))-((0.11-0.07)/0.11) * 110) = -22.4045 (the books solution is \$-29.82) Now I plug in the new value of 890 instead 1000 (like poker_apprentice and me mentioned) and get this equation: ((0.15-0.15)/0.15)*50+(0.15/0.15)*((0.07/0.11*(2015*0.51-890))-((0.11-0.07)/0.11) * 110) = 47.60 a positive number for our EV! Guess this is wrong too! Makes no sense, imo. If villain always 4bets (like in the example) and we fold some of the times to his 4bet. The 0.51% Equity when all in will not make the EV positive for the times we fold to his 4 bet. I guess. So I think there is something more wrong with the formula. Any help? And btw Iam some kind dissapointed that Mr. Bakker or Mason Malmuth don't answer to to this topic. Because both already posted here and I think it should be no big problem to help us in this question. Or some kind of statement would be nice. Man there is nothing wrong with having one or two failures in a book like these. there are some more math fails in much more expensive Poker ebooks with less mathematics in it. So nothing to be ashamed off oO. Great book imo. But why can't the author just turn his PC on and post the right equations in this thread or give any advice? This is a 2plus2 book, so I think I am in the right forum? edit: haha @xpxinvxpy posted at the same time ^^ thx for the new table Last edited by Pökerfu; 03-22-2011 at 11:02 AM.
 03-22-2011, 11:22 AM #179 xpxinvxpy stranger   Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 11 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion I believe the table on page 220 is in error. It is based on the Hero's perceived range of 88+, AJo+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+ after the flop. The flop is Qc,5d,4s so Villain knows that Hero does not have Qc in his hand, and probabilities must be calculated based on Qc being removed from Hero's possible hands. Below are the ranges with the number of possibilities given twice, first without card removal and then with card removal. HTML Code: ```88+ AJo+ ATs+ KTs+ QTs+ ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== AA-6-6 AKo-12-12 AKs-4-4 KQs-4-3 QJs-4-3 KK-6-6 AQo-12-9 AQs-4-3 KJs-4-4 QTs-4-3 QQ-6-3 AJo-12-12 AJs-4-4 KTs-4-4 JJ-6-6 ATs-4-4 TT-6-6 99-6-6 88-6-6 ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== 42-39 36-33 16-15 12-11 8-6``` total hands with no removal: 42+36+16+12+8=114 total hands with card removal: 39+33+15+11+6 Let's calculate the probabilities of various types of hands as per page 220, using the "card removal" numbers. SET: QQ 3 3/104=0.0288 (agrees with the book's 3%) PAIR OF QUEENS: AQo,AQs,KQs,QJs,QTs 9+3+3+3+3 = 21 21/104 = 0.202 (does not agree with the book's 27%) ANY PAIR: 88+,pair of queens 39+21 = 60 60/104 = 0.5769 (agrees with the book's 58%) OVERCARDS: AKo,AKs 12+4 = 16 16/104 = 0.154 (does not agree with the book's 14.0%) NO PAIR, NO DRAW (presumably includes overcards): AKo,AJo,AKs,AJs,ATs,KJs,KTs 12+12+4+4+4+4+4 = 44 44/104 = 0.423 (does not agree with book's 39%) Of the five numbers in the table, I can reproduce two of them. Can anyone confirm/deny the other three? Maybe I made a mistake, but I can't figure out what it is.
 03-22-2011, 11:42 AM #180 Pökerfu enthusiast   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: winning by misclicks Posts: 53 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion just plugged your number in flopzilla. Your numbers are nearly exact! Books table is wrong. but there are just 57 combos for any pair -> Toppair 21 combos 88-JJ 24 combos, overpair 12 combos. So flopzilla gives me 54.8 % pairs of range. edit: I want to apologize again for my bad english skills. ^^ In my last post there are some hard fails, hope you native speakers will understand at least some of the post. haha Last edited by Pökerfu; 03-22-2011 at 12:04 PM.
 03-22-2011, 01:17 PM #181 xpxinvxpy stranger   Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 11 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion Pokerfu you are correct there are 57 pairs. I erred in counting 88+ as 39, it should have been 36 because QQ makes a set not a pair! Thanks. Let's have more fun. See my next post later today.
 03-22-2011, 03:13 PM #182 xpxinvxpy stranger   Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 11 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion working on page 223 of Bakker's Anayltical NLHE [Pokerfu, maybe you can Flopzilla this problem?] flop is 9s 7s 6d for each component of the range, the number of possibilities without card removal and with card removal are given AJs-4/4 ATs-4/4 KQs-4/4 KTs-4/4 QJs-4/4 QTs-4/4 JTs-4/4 T9s-4/3 98s-4/3 77-TT 6+6+6+6=24/3+6+3+6=18 total number of possibilities without card removal: 4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4+24=60 total number of possibilities with card removal 4+4+4+4+4+4+4+3+3+18=52 SET: 3+3=6 6/52=0.1154 (agrees with the book's 12%) STRAIGHT DRAW: open ended is anything with an 8 (98s and 88): 3+6=9 gutshot is anything with a T (T9s, JTs, QTs, KTs, ATs, TT): 3+4+4+4+4+6=25 9+25=34 34/54=0.6296 (disagrees with the book's 40%) ANY PAIR: flopped pair is anything with a single 9 (98s, T9s): 3+3=6 pocket pair is 88 and TT (because 77 and 99 make sets): 12 6+12=18 18/54=0.3333 (disagrees with the book's 36%) I conjecture that there is some overlap that is not being accounted for properly. E.g., 88 makes both a pair and a straight draw, how shall it be counted? If STRAIGHT DRAW is STRAIGHT DRAW WITH NO PAIR then open ended is 98s (88 doesn't count because it makes a pair): 3 gutshot is anything with a T except TT (T9s, JTs, QTs, KTs, ATs): 3+4+4+4+4+=19 3+19=22 22/54=0.4074 (agrees with the book's 40%) If ANY PAIR is ANY PAIR WITH NO STRAIGHT DRAW then flopped pair is only T9s (98s doesn't count because it makes a straight draw): 3 no pocket pairs count because 77 and 99 make sets, 88 makes an open ender, and TT makes a gutshot: 0 3+0=3 3/54 = 0.056 There is a lack of precision in how "any pair" and "straight draw" are defined, and it leads to confusion. Perhaps I have missed something, but I must say that I am confused about the percentages reported on page 223.
 03-22-2011, 03:31 PM #183 Pökerfu enthusiast   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: winning by misclicks Posts: 53 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion Looking for your next post. But the topic is not fun at all for me. I really get nuts over the problem on page 198. Like we said the table is wrong anyways. But the EV of \$47 for line1 makes no sense to me. I guess the \$-22 make more sense, because we fold 64% percent of the time to a 4bet. So the EV shouldnt be postive with just 51% Equity but already invested \$110 for the 3bet. I really hope some more give their opinion to this topic. I can say the other formulas in the books are correct. I checked them with some tools and by computing by myself. But there is another formula I have problems with. It is the formula on page 68. I can't remember exactly what it was, but I think the plugged in numbers don't match with the formula above exactly. These both formulas are the two I left beside. But it is a little bit sad because both handle preflop 3betting...
 03-22-2011, 03:31 PM #184 Pökerfu enthusiast   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: winning by misclicks Posts: 53 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion edit: haha posted again at the same time. Will c what I can do with flopzilla, but Iam some knd of tired. Maybe not just right now ^^
 03-22-2011, 04:07 PM #185 Pökerfu enthusiast   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: winning by misclicks Posts: 53 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion set 6 combios 12 % overpair 6 combos 12%; toppair 6 combos 12%, pocket pairs below toppair 6 combos 12% oesd 9combos 18%; gutshot 23 combos 46 % It is included any gs with and without pair and any oesd with and without pair 89s and TT for example are counted both in the pair group and in the straight group. But that are just combinatorics. I dont see a big problem in it . I can think he is not counting the combos twice, but flopzilla does for every category counting the combos new. So the maybe he is alright and we are wrong, because I didnt look for that effect of flopzilla. anyways Iam sure you can get a free trial for flopzilla and count on your own. ^^ Last edited by Pökerfu; 03-22-2011 at 04:22 PM.
03-23-2011, 06:15 AM   #187
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion

Hi: Poker--

I took a look at this and my comments are below.

Best wishes,
Mason

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Pökerfu Sorry for my bad english, but I have an important question related to the book. My math is not good at all. (But it becomes better) so I need some help pls. I like the book very much and it helped me a lot. I work a lot with it. But beside the small mistake in one of the combos equation and another small mistake where the the positions are wrong (both already mentioned in this thread) I really think it is one of the best books besides MOP and TOP, because it teaches you the basic analytic tools to improve yourself on your own. But there is one thing that gets me completely on tilt. And that is the page 198. I try for some hours now to get the formula in a script. But it does not work. I solved it with some software and by hand but the results I get for the EV of hero's 3bet don't match with the results in the table on page 198. I used the values of the table and plugged it into the formula. But not one of the results for the EV of 3betting are the same as the the results in the book on that page. So I think the table is wrong?
The formula looks correct to me. See my comments below.

Quote:
 But thats not the only thing on the page 198. I think the formula is wrong also! not just the results in the table.
I too get different results from what is in the table. Specifically, when I recalculated the EV of 3-Bing for the first three lines of the table, my results were -\$22.40, \$7.50 and \$27.65 respectively. This compares to the table entries of -\$29.82, \$6 and \$27.65 respectively.

However, even though this is the case, I believe the table entries are correct. What has probably happened is just simple rounding error. For instance, on the second line, if the percentage for the equity was 49.93 percent, then it would come out to \$6 as is given in the table. So it seems like the source of confusion is that the equity column should have been given to two more decimal places, but the calculated EVs are most likely correct.

Quote:
 the scenario in the book goes: (eff.st: \$1000, blinds:\$15, CO opens \$35, Hero(BU) 3bets to \$110, CO folds or shoves) Variables: r - PFRvillain; a - perc.hands vill. 4bets; t - perc. of hands Hero 3bets; c - Heros calling 4bet range; eq - Heros equity when all in We want to know the EV of Heros 3bet (given Hero has a hand in his 3bet range) (btw.:there can some parenthesis be wrong in my formula) EV = ((r-a)/(r))*(\$50) + (a/r)*((c/t)*((2015)*(EQ)-1000)-((t-c)/(t))*(110)) but I guess it must be: EV = ((r-a)/(r))*(\$50) + (a/r)*((c/t)*((2015)*(EQ)-890)-((t-c)/(t))*(110)) I think it is okay to translate the formula like this: ((r-a)/(r)) -> prob.villain folds (a/r) -> prob. villain 4 bets (c/t) -> prob. hero calls 4bet ((t-c)/(t)) -> prob. hero folds vs 4bet so the formula becomes like this: (so some of you can maybe see better what I mean and where my problem is.) p(villain folds) * (\$50) + p(villain 4bets) * ((p(hero calls 4bet)*(\$2015)*(Equity) - \$1000) - p(herofolds vs 4bet)*(\$110)) I think we just have to call 890 instead of the \$1000 effective stack in the equation, because when we get 4bet we only need to call \$890 because we already 3betted to \$110 so we just need to call \$890 to realize our equity in an all in pot. Am I right or is the formula correct in the book?
I think what's happening here is that the author, Thomas Bakker, is computing the expectation for the specific startegy from the start of the hand to the finish of the hand. That's why the number \$1,000 is used. On the other hand, if you were to compute the expectation at the point where your opponent four bet shoves, then you would use the \$890 figure. So again, the book looks correct to me.

Quote:
 Because otherwise, if it is not correct this has an huge impact on the \$EV. Please tell me, someone who really knows. Maybe Thomas Bakker can help or some other one who knows good about math. This is the importanst formula for me, but it is the only one I really had some problems with. I really need help in this question before I am getting complete nuts, because of all the time I worked on it. cliffnotes: - I think the formula on page 198 is wrong and hero just has to call \$890 instead of the \$1000 in the formula. - I think the table on page 198 is wrong also, regardless if Iam using the original value of \$1000 or my own value of \$890 to call heros 4bet. The results never matched with the results in the table. (Some were quit close, some results were far off track)

03-23-2011, 06:19 AM   #188
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion

Quote:
 Originally Posted by poker_apprentice And as Pökerfu pointed out, the correct formula must be: EV = ((r-a)/(r))*(\$50) + (a/r)*((c/t)*((2015)*(EQ)-890)-((t-c)/(t))*(110)) On way to see this, is by using the formula for calling an AI given on page 65.
The formula on page 65 is for deciding whether to call at the specific point in the hand. That's normally the way you think about poker problems. But the formula on page 198 is looking at a complete strategy from start to finish. Thus the difference.

Best wishes,
mason

03-23-2011, 06:20 AM   #189
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion

Quote:
 Originally Posted by xpxinvxpy Following up on Poker_Apprentice's confirmation of Pokerfu's observation that the formula should use 890 instead of 1000, I have rerun the numbers for the table of page 198. The first column is what's in the book and is wrong. The second column is correct calculations based on the wrong formula using 1000 that's in the book. The third column is what the book should use in the next printing, since it's based on the correct formula using 890. HTML Code: ```book 1000 890 ==== ==== ==== -29.82 -22.40 47.60 6.00 7.50 117.50 27.18 27.65 137.65 -18.49 10.28 56.95 3.33 48.53 121.87 15.76 17.32 40.65 26.67 29.12 65.78 24.36 25.26 39.26 32.40 33.58 51.18```
Please see my previous posts. I believe what's in the book is correct.

Mason

 03-23-2011, 06:33 AM #190 Pökerfu enthusiast   Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: winning by misclicks Posts: 53 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion Thank you Mason. I will wait what others say but your explanations make some sense to me. I take a little break and go over it later the day. Thx for your response. I will soon order the Ducy book ^^
03-23-2011, 06:35 AM   #191
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion

Quote:
 Originally Posted by xpxinvxpy I believe the table on page 220 is in error. It is based on the Hero's perceived range of 88+, AJo+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+ after the flop. The flop is Qc,5d,4s so Villain knows that Hero does not have Qc in his hand, and probabilities must be calculated based on Qc being removed from Hero's possible hands. Below are the ranges with the number of possibilities given twice, first without card removal and then with card removal. HTML Code: ```88+ AJo+ ATs+ KTs+ QTs+ ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== AA-6-6 AKo-12-12 AKs-4-4 KQs-4-3 QJs-4-3 KK-6-6 AQo-12-9 AQs-4-3 KJs-4-4 QTs-4-3 QQ-6-3 AJo-12-12 AJs-4-4 KTs-4-4 JJ-6-6 ATs-4-4 TT-6-6 99-6-6 88-6-6 ==== ==== ==== ==== ==== 42-39 36-33 16-15 12-11 8-6``` total hands with no removal: 42+36+16+12+8=114 total hands with card removal: 39+33+15+11+6 Let's calculate the probabilities of various types of hands as per page 220, using the "card removal" numbers. SET: QQ 3 3/104=0.0288 (agrees with the book's 3%) PAIR OF QUEENS: AQo,AQs,KQs,QJs,QTs 9+3+3+3+3 = 21 21/104 = 0.202 (does not agree with the book's 27%) ANY PAIR: 88+,pair of queens 39+21 = 60 60/104 = 0.5769 (agrees with the book's 58%) OVERCARDS: AKo,AKs 12+4 = 16 16/104 = 0.154 (does not agree with the book's 14.0%) NO PAIR, NO DRAW (presumably includes overcards): AKo,AJo,AKs,AJs,ATs,KJs,KTs 12+12+4+4+4+4+4 = 44 44/104 = 0.423 (does not agree with book's 39%) Of the five numbers in the table, I can reproduce two of them. Can anyone confirm/deny the other three? Maybe I made a mistake, but I can't figure out what it is.
Hi xpxinvxpy:

It looks like this table has some errors and your numbers look correct to me. I suspect the 27 percent for a pair of queens is a type-o. It looks like the overcards was calculated without taking into account the removal of the Q, and the same for the no-pair number. Also, for your any pair, QQ should not be included. I suspect the author made the same error.

Best wishes,
mason

 03-23-2011, 12:40 PM #192 poker_apprentice centurion   Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 197 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion I am very sorry for the confusion caused by my wrong answer (apologies to pökerfu in particular), and thank Mason for correcting it. Referring to the table on page 198 again, I don't understand how the numbers given in the column 'Our Equity When All-in' have been calculated. If we take the percentages given in the columns 'Opponent 4b' and 'Our All-in Range', and then plug them into pokerstove, we get different results.
 03-25-2011, 09:32 AM #193 xpxinvxpy stranger   Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 11 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion Possible errors in Table on page 223 The range and number of possibilities with card removal (accounting for the 9s 7s 6d flop) AJs 4 ATs 4 KQs-KTs 3*4=12 QJs 4 QTs 4 JTs 4 T9s 3 98s 3 TT-77 6+3+6+3= 18 ============ total number of hands = 56 set (77, 99; 3+3=6) 6/56 = 0.107 (disagrees with book's 12%) Since the only pocket cards with this range that make sets are 77 and 99 for a total of 6 possibilities, the book's 12% implies that there should be only 50 possible hands (6/50=0.12). So maybe I counted the possiblities incorrectly, but I don't see where. any pair (T9s, 98s, TT, 88; 3+3+6+6=18) 18/56 = 0.321 (disagrees with book's 36%) If there are only 50 possible hands then 18/50=0.36 which agrees with the book. Again, I don't see how there are only 50 possible hands. overcards (AJs, ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs, JTs; 4+4+12+4+4+4=32) 32/56=0.571 (disagrees with book's 52%). If there are only 50 possible hands then 32/50=0.64 which again disagrees with the book. Perhaps someone can find my mistake and resolve the discrepancies, or confirm that I am correct.
 05-20-2011, 01:40 AM #194 YummyYumChicken old hand   Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,591 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion bump this book any good, apart from being filled with typos?
 06-06-2011, 01:05 PM #196 YouCheckRaise Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,453 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion Do people think this book would be suitable for me as a live player who started online, i'm mainly looking to improve my fundamentals, get better at being aggressive.
06-07-2011, 03:41 AM   #197
Brother Love
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Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion

Quote:
So the book is full of typos and you disagree with the ranges, bet sizes and examples but apart from that it's a good book right?

06-08-2011, 05:20 AM   #198
Donkey111
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Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Brother Love So the book is full of typos and you disagree with the ranges, bet sizes and examples but apart from that it's a good book right?
I don't disagree with the author that much. I was just summarising (badly) some of the criticisms.

From some books, I only remember the conclusions but have forgotten all the calculations leading to the conclusion after reading them. But in Analytical No Limit Hold'em, I feel the Author's methodology is actually more valuable than the conclusions he draws in some particular cases. In some sections, what he is giving you are tools to improve your work away from the table if you are ready to redo some of his calculations with your own ranges and stats. This can allow you to devise specific exploitive strategies against various opponents. I feel these tools are more important than knowing if you should 4-bet raise the pot or 3/4 of the pot (for example).

Quote:
 Originally Posted by YouCheckRaise Do people think this book would be suitable for me as a live player who started online, i'm mainly looking to improve my fundamentals, get better at being aggressive.
Although some bits can be reusable, the book often implicitly assumes that you have reliable stats on the other players. It is really a book on online poker. If amping up your aggressivity is your objective, you will be better served with more practical books (like Dusty Schmidt's last book) or watching videos.

06-13-2011, 10:34 AM   #199
xxl_w1
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Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Donkey111 Finally read it completely. To be honest I was expecting to be disappointed due to mixed reviews in this thread so the book was a very good surprise. Surely, one could complain that the ranges or the bet sizes the authors chose in this section weren’t completely representative of today’s mid-stake games (which is somewhat debatable) but his method of approaching problems (calculating EV) is what make the section good and timeless: the ranges and bet sizes can be changed but the method stands and the reader can always make calculations with its own data with the help of PokerStove and Flopzilla.
I liked this book more than others like it. Unfortunately most players are looking for systems. "In order to win you should 3bet this range, you should make exactly this bet size, etc." What they don't realize is even if the bet sizes or ranges were completely representative of today's midstake games probably they wouldn't be representative anymore after 4 years. A book should have value for many years not just for a year or 2. I think those who want systems should watch videos instead of reading books.

 09-11-2012, 09:50 PM #200 Kade1988 newbie   Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 46 Re: Analytical No-Limit Hold 'em by Thomas Bakker reviews and discussion Hi, I am thinking of buying the book but im not sure because its alrdy 2years old, is it still useful? (for me useful) MYSELF: So I am grinding at nl100 8-12 tables and iam a winning player. I didnt really read much about poker just Harrington on Online CG, which gave me the basics about Holdem Manager and how to interprete stats and crush nl25. After this i started watching videos on DeucesCracked where I improved to the point that i am able to play nl100 as a winning player. Now I am searching for a new book to read, I guess my biggest leak is poker-maths (and im good at reading stats and exploiting leaks i find there) and in this book is some maths and also some other concepts right and because of this its maybe not that dry to read what I am afraid of :P So can you recommend this book although its alrdy 2 years old or is there any better book which is helping me more!? My goal is to move up to nl200+!

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