Yes. I get a little frustrated when I have the nuts or close to it and thin value-bet the river and villain folds--then, the very next hand, said villain stacks off with middle pair to someone with a monster. Why not call me villain? Seriously. I also get pretty upset when I open raise aces for 3-4xBB (and plenty of other hands too, it's not like I push with aces!) and the table just folds. Then some moron goes all-in with AA for 100-200BB and gets freakin' 2-3 callers and mops up the table.

The numbers are VP$IP/PFR.

VP$IP = Voluntarily Put $ Into Pot (or the % of hands you call/raise with)
PFR = Pre-Flop Raise (or the % of hands you open-raise with)[/QUOTE]

****ing AMEN brother. I have played about 32k hands at the micros playing about 20/19, making a decent profit. But for ONCE i would like to make it to the showdown and win a decent pot. i can summaries 90% of my sessions as this.

JaykDz wins pot ($0.15)
JaykDz wins pot ($0.15)
JaykDz wins pot ($0.10)
random limper who hits his hand wins pot ($3.20)
JaykDz wins pot ($0.20)
other reg on table wins pot ($0.25)
other reg on table wins pot ($0.25)
JaykDz wins pot ($0.15)
JaykDz wins pot ($0.15)

im exaggerating but you get the idea. I have no idea how i don't tilt sometimes and randomly go all in. so annoying.

Originally Posted by KingKongGrinder View Post
I think everyone looks too much into stats. Alex Rodriguez has great stats, but he can’t win a dam thing and is terrible in the clutch.

Yes I guess I should have waited, but in my defense, before this season he did suck in the clutch.

Hmm, I see what you're saying but here's my problem. When I raise all the time, I lose so much value on my hands. I find that I can usually get more value with a check-raise or check-call, check-raise turn and bet river. Or something other unusual that will keep my opponent in the pot. I almost never works to have AJ and the flop is J-8-2 rainbow for example. Ill make my c-bet, he calls but they almost never call after that unless they beat me.

Or am i expecting too much value??

I play NL10 right now btw.

I'm glad this post is still open. I'm always averse to anyone saying there's only ONE way to play Poker ('the RIGHT way'). Anyone who says something like that is an idiot. I think we can all agree there. And by that rationale, the OP is an idiot.

Don't get me wrong, we have to respect skill and experience, and WCGRider will probably crush me heads up. I am fish, he is expert.

But saying there could not be tables where it would yield more EV to limp more than raise anytime you enter a pot? Come on!

I remember a great thread where the strategy against fish is compared to rock-paper-scissors. You can probably find it in search. Read it. Be a fish to beat a fish. Just be the TYPE of fish that beats his type.

You raise to make people fold. There are tables where people just don't get with that concept. You can raise 8x the blind. You can go all in. They all call, at least 5 out of 10. So you go busto before you see any long term profit. Do the math.

So please, PLEASE STOP RAISING pre flop. Only way to beat tables with calling stations is to bet for value. You cannot bet for value pre flop. (Only with a very, very limited range (Aces). Otherwise,) YOU CANNOT BET FOR VALUE PRE FLOP. You just don't know what the other guy is calling with. See the flop, and then see who still likes his hand. And bet for value. Fat value. Thank you.

Did you bother to read the prior 253 posts? There's probably a reason your strategy isn't working at NL5, and why you're still at NL5.

It's just gold when a new player/user finds this thread and goes "hey wait a minute, betting with the best hand against people who won't fold is BAD!"

Thanks for the quick reply. I also think it is very valuable when newbies just don't get it and need it to be explained to them again.

Yes, I did bother with the previous 253 posts. And no, I did not find any reason why you should raise pre flop with a table full of calling stations, except maybe if you REALLY know you are very high EV pre flop (like with Aces or Kings)

(I found very good posts elsewhere giving good reasons to limp more)

so please

pretty please

gime me ONE GOOD REASON

uhm...

for value, getting money in the pot while ahead. Pretty sure it has been covered in this thread

Again, that cannot be the case. You can only bet for value if you believe you will get called by enough worse hands (by definition). BUT: what if they ALL call? Then, with any given flop, odds are against you that you have the best hand. AT LEAST ONE OF THEM WILL HAVE HIT. Unless that one is you, but then you might as well have limped. Again, if you always raise pre flop with a bunch of calling stations at the table, you will not hit enough to make if profitable. ON SUCH TABLES (full ring, lots of stations), you should tighten the range with which you raise, and loosen your limping requirements.

Is all I'm saying.

If they all call I belive they are calling with worse. So i bet for value. If you get to many callers, raise bigger.

JHC I feel like I'm taking crazy pills over here (what's in this water?)

you gave the definition of a value bet (they call with worse), then say we can't value bet because they all call.

How is it then impossible to value bet, when they are infact calling with worse?

On some tables, if you raise bigger (and sometimes only all-in will do), you accomplish two things: 1) You can only do it with a VERY limited range, because they WILL still call you (that's why you love them so much), and 2) Odds are that you WILL go bust before you see a profit

Maybe you feel that you should just get up and leave if everybody always calls your raise, but I don't think so.

you may have the best hand pre flop most of the time, but even if you always have the best hand pre flop, there are still five cards to come, and with like five or six people in the pot, odds are you don't have the best hand anymore, if you haven't hit.

So hit first, then bet for value.

no way I'm leaving that table, that would be like burning money.

you don't go bust, you use the auto reload.

I don't see the problem if they are calling, when I have the better hand.

But then I'm getting 5:1 on my money. I don't need to win every pot. Getting money in the pot when ahead is the most fundamental thing in poker. It will give you a profit

Ok I suck at math (too), so help me out. With five callers, you are getting 5:1 from the pot. Odds are you have the best hand most of the time, so what is your range? Let's say 10-15%, maybe 20%? And they all call with like 50% or something? So with 5 of them, what are the chances they hit the board? What are their COLLECTIVE chances, against your chances of hitting? Can someone do the math on that one? So what odds are you getting, exactly, for that 5:1 on your money? I just don't know, I only know from experience, it must not be very much.

All I can say is, when they hit something (and chances are that they do), you must have hit bigger, and then you can stack them. So limping or calling with the WORST hand yourself, especially small pairs and suited connectors, gives you a fighting chance in such situations (which are not uncommon on 2-5NL tables).

btw I'm playing 6-max on Stars now, so I NEVER limp and only rarely call pre flop. They actually DO fold to c-bets and I'm doing fine.

I dont think it is wise to always play agresevily. Im not exactly a pro eather, and ill proberly get flamed for saying it.

But uasely it is not worth raising with all hands you play when the table is full of fish & whales who will call with just about any hand.

Of course it depends on the situation, but often there is like no reason to raise if you dont have a very strong hand. Of course aces and kings should always be raised, but other than those two hands its not really worth raising.

When you know you will get like 4-5 callers, all you do is build a pot you are not a favorite to win. Better just limp and when you do hit the flop just bet hard, because likely some of them will pay you with their whole stack.

But then again it higly depends on the situation. if the table is very tight . then of course you should raise more hands, it may also depend on wich site you play on as some sites are much more soft than others.

Also you can try to raise a lot more than the usual 3-5 bb. that will make some of them fold . Say you raise 15 bb, The problem is you may often be called or reraised only from better hands. So in a long run it is proberly not worth bothering, since you can easely beat these tables without doing this.

Its been sayd 100 times before, but the best advise to play low micro games is to just play honest ABC poker.

Dont try to be smart, and make a move on a player who dont understand the reason behind you play.

Dont bluff. When you dont hit you hand, just fold it.

Its not a tournament there is no hurry to acumulate chips. Just wait until you hit hard, bet like hell, and very often you can get their whole stack.

oh boy.. when a newbie agrees with you, is that good or bad?

Isn't that obvious? Their collective chance of having the best hand is less than the 80% they put in the pot, since you have a better range preflop. Pokerstove gives you 26.3% equity (range 15%) and them 18.4% each (range 50%) assuming all get to showdown.

no, what you are saying is that, the five of them together, they OWN the pot!

I'd have to check this (my PStove is running as we speak), but it seems a fair statement.

Come on guys, if not, you should be HAPPY to get FIVE callers when you are all in with your Aces. But you are not. And you shouldn't be. You should be happy to get your value AFTER the flop.

player 6 is running unbelievably good at the moment, with his 50% range, but PStove hasn't finished yet...

I haven't seen this post yet cause I started with poker just about when the thread was started and just had a 2+2 account without knowing how to even read a hand-history.

Anyways: Thread = BIG AHA Moment.

One thing that works very well for me is lately: 3bet c-bet : win pot without SD.

Aight, I got you now - with 5 TOTAL in the pot, 1 of 15% range, 4 of 50% range, the 15% range still has the best of it.

So as long as you have no more than 4 calling stations at the table, you can keep raising pre flop, +EV.

(How'd you come up with those numbers so fast? My PStove is STILL running)

While this is theoreticly correct its not that simple.

When you raise with the lower end of your range, and there are five callers there is a high chance one of them is above your range.

Also this is when all hands get to showdown, but most often you dont know if you have the best hand after the flop, because its like imposibel to put those kind of players on a hand. They can have anything.

The only thing you can do when you hit is to bet hard, and let it go when you dont hit anything, even you may still be ahead, but you will often fold the best hand.

Also some of the reasons for raising preflop is non existant in these kind of games.

You raise your hands, to get people to fold wich they dont do in these kinda games.

You raise your hands, to ensure the pot will be big at the river. But there is litle reason to do this when the players have no idea off how the pot size effects play. You can many times overbet the pot like 2-3 times when you hit your hand, and they will still call if they hit anything.

Anyway im not advocating that raising preflop is bad, of course it is not, in a game where people have at least a basic idea of the game.

But just dont try to play a clever game against someone who has no idea of what they are doing.