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why so low bet size? why so low bet size?

11-25-2017 , 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
I mean, bet-sizing is pretty straightforward really. If you think a big sizing is best for your range, go very polar ("nuts" and good draws) so you have a low c-bet frequency, but if you pick a small size, you can bet at a higher frequency and include more of your mid-strength hands and more draws.
the most important question:
what decides which bet sizing is better for my range?
thank you so much
why so low bet size? Quote
11-25-2017 , 10:03 AM
Cbet normal size because you should get floated a lot, followed by a small turn and river bet.
why so low bet size? Quote
11-25-2017 , 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK1991
the most important question:
what decides which bet sizing is better for my range?
In a way it takes lots of practice/experience and thinking/studying to work it out, but you should be considering which player has the "nut advantage" (the most very strong combos in his range) and trying to work out how often villain folds vs different bet-sizes, but you should also note that position has a great deal of importance. Like with the overbetting example higher up in the thread, if you think villain hates to face big bets with his range, then big bets are probably a good choice.
It's actually very difficult to work it out in your head for BvB spots, because that's where ranges are widest and range advantage isn't always obvious, until the river at least. (As with heads up play, you have hundreds of combos to think about. It's not like UTGvMP, where ranges are tight/face up). You're also OOP, which should automatically make you lean towards smaller sizes.

As yet another example, if you open on the BTN and the BB defends, and the flop comes AQ3r, a big c-bet is often appropriate for your range, because you have a nut advantage and you're IP. (Villain never has AA or QQ or AK, rarely has AQ or A3s, but you can rep all those hands. He doesn't have many hands that can call down if you triple barrel, particularly if you bet big. He doesn't even have many draws - while you have them all, because he'll 3-bet pre with some of the KJ/KT/JT combos).
In a BvB spot on something like T53tt, villain in BB will often have many hands that can float the flop, as he can have middle and bottom set, a few two pair combos, and quite a lot of Tx, 5x, 3s, 99-66, overcards, draws etc. It's easier for him to realize equity in position, and he'll often have profitable bluffing spots if/when you check to him at some point. So in that spot, your range probably doesn't want to bet big.

I'd recommend you get Janda's book(s) if you're interested in this kind of thing.
why so low bet size? Quote
11-27-2017 , 02:25 AM
thank you so much for your answers
Last question:
what book did you think?
https://www.amazon.com/Applications-...1763648&sr=1-1

or

https://www.amazon.com/No-Limit-Hold...1763648&sr=1-2

thanks
why so low bet size? Quote
11-27-2017 , 10:18 AM
Both are good. The latter (NLH for advanced players) has more in depth discussion of bet-sizing in specific spots. It's also a lot more readable than the first book, which contained some sub-optimal ranges and too many equations imo.
why so low bet size? Quote
11-29-2017 , 04:26 AM
I have bought https://www.amazon.com/No-Limit-Hold...1763648&sr=1-2
I don't like a lot of math
I have to waiting for the book a few days. Could you tell me you opinion what do you think about the spot? I have to cbet a lot of for protection becouse I have a lot of Tx,7x hands which needs protection but here villain has a lot of flush and straight draw. Is it problem or not? thanks




Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.30 (103 bb)
BB: $10.86 (108.6 bb)
UTG: $10.40 (104 bb)
MP: $11.77 (117.7 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10.18 (101.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with T 5
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, SB folds, BB calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.55) T73 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.15
why so low bet size? Quote
11-29-2017 , 01:54 PM
I would fold pre with T5s on the button, although plenty of other people open it.

On 73Ttt, you could either bet small and at a high frequency, including a lot of weak hands that need protection like 7x, A3s, but I think your range on average does better with a large size and a more polarized range.
T5s does not make much sense as a bet unless you go very small. If you bet more than 1/2 pot, your value bets would be something like QT or better, as you need to put some of your top pairs into a check-back range. T5s (or even JT, T9, T8s) is almost never going to be looking to play for 3 streets of value, so start with a check imo.
Be aware that villain isn't going to fold his draws on the flop (and he might check-raise some of them), so you don't have a ton of fold equity. If you don't have a ton of fold equity, don't c-bet with weak hands. Keep the pot small and see what happens on the turn. On the rare occasions you bink a T or 5 on the turn (after checking back the flop), you stand to win quite a lot vs random pairs or draws, but you can also lose the minimum if a horrible card like the Jack of hearts comes along. (FWIW, the jack of hearts would be a nice card to be holding when you actually c-bet this flop, either for value or as a bluff. Hands like J8ss and QJss would also be nice c-betting candidates due to the blockers and backdoors. T5cc not so much. Most turn cards are horrible for that hand if the pot is bloated).

Last edited by ArtyMcFly; 11-29-2017 at 02:03 PM.
why so low bet size? Quote
11-29-2017 , 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK1991
I have to waiting for the book a few days. Could you tell me you opinion what do you think about the spot? I have to cbet a lot of for protection becouse I have a lot of Tx,7x hands which needs protection but here villain has a lot of flush and straight draw. Is it problem or not? thanks
Villain has mostly (1)backdoor flush (2)backdoor straight (3)overcards in his range (backdoor means he needs help on both the turn and river)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with T 5
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, SB folds, BB calls $0.15

Why do you raise PF here? To steal or for value? It would be very nice if we (Hero) had a read on the blind players behind. Tight players, I will steal whenever possible. But more inclined to bet PF with value hands versus likely callers.

[Question #1] What hands does villain hold to call your PF raise? (he did not raise, he did not fold)


Flop: ($0.55) T73 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.15
With this flop, you have top pair with an extremely weak kicker....and only 2 tens and 3 fives plus a weak backdoor straight draw to bail you out if behind. Momentarily you are probably ahead but hate half the deck on the turn.

[Question #2]"hate half the deck on the turn".... why do I say that?

[Question #3] Given answers to #1 and #2.... and villain checks to you on the flop...... what would you like to happen for this hand and more importantly, how can you make this happen?
why so low bet size? Quote
11-29-2017 , 04:29 PM
ArtyMcFly:
Quote:
On 73Ttt, you could either bet small and at a high frequency, including a lot of weak hands that need protection like 7x, A3s, but I think your range on average does better with a large size and a more polarized range.
hands like A-3 don't need protection because those hands realize equity (I mean A realize equity) so it is good hand for check

Quote:
Be aware that villain isn't going to fold his draws on the flop (and he might check-raise some of them), so you don't have a ton of fold equity. If you don't have a ton of fold equity, don't c-bet with weak hands. Keep the pot small and see what happens on the turn. On the rare occasions you bink a T or 5 on the turn (after checking back the flop), you stand to win quite a lot vs random pairs or draws, but you can also lose the minimum if a horrible card like the Jack of hearts comes along. (FWIW, the jack of hearts would be a nice card to be holding when you actually c-bet this flop, either for value or as a bluff. Hands like J8ss and QJss would also be nice c-betting candidates due to the blockers and backdoors. T5cc not so much. Most turn cards are horrible for that hand if the pot is bloated).
It is true that he doesn't fold his draw but he has to pay if I bet small so he doesn't get free card. what is wrong in my logic? thanks



King Spew:

Quote:
Why do you raise PF here? To steal or for value? It would be very nice if we (Hero) had a read on the blind players behind. Tight players, I will steal whenever possible. But more inclined to bet PF with value hands versus likely callers.
I open T-5,4,3,2 on bu all the time. In the last 150k hands is my winning 2.81bb/100 so I open to steal. I don't know it is maybe variance. What do you think?

Quote:
[Question #1] What hands does villain hold to call your PF raise? (he did not raise, he did not fold)
He also can bluffs hans like A-5,4,3,2 or K-5,4,3,2 etc.



Quote:
[Question #2]"hate half the deck on the turn".... why do I say that?
I am not sure. It is reason for cbet?

Quote:
[Question #3] Given answers to #1 and #2.... and villain checks to you on the flop...... what would you like to happen for this hand and more importantly, how can you make this happen?
Probably the best result is that villain folds. How can I make this happen? I bet big (2/3 of pot). Is it the right solution?

thank you so much guys
why so low bet size? Quote
11-29-2017 , 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK1991
ArtyMcFly:
hands like A-3 don't need protection because those hands realize equity (I mean A realize equity) so it is good hand for check
A3 is more vulnerable to free cards than Tx, since almost every turn card will be higher than a 3, but less than half the deck will be higher than T.
e.g. Imagine villain has something like K4s which would check-fold to a bet. That has 6 outs vs A3. It only has 3 outs vs JT-T5. Ergo, A3 is more in need of protection than top pair, since quite a lot of villain's check-folding range has 2 overs to bottom pair. A3s also does well if villain peels with Axhh, as binking 2 pairs on an ace (an unlikely 2 outer, I know) will mean it can bet for value and get called again. Villain doesn't call with any Tx worse than T5s, so it's unlikely that will be able to value-bet multiple streets and get called by worse.

The T73tt flop situation looks pretty simple to me. Bet QT+ for value, bet 3x and maybe some 66-44 and 22 for protection, balance with a bunch of strong and weak draws and overcards with backdoors. Check weak Tx, 99/88 and some mid-strength draws.
why so low bet size? Quote
11-30-2017 , 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
The T73tt flop situation looks pretty simple to me. Bet QT+ for value, bet 3x and maybe some 66-44 and 22 for protection, balance with a bunch of strong and weak draws and overcards with backdoors. Check weak Tx, 99/88 and some mid-strength draws.
and what 7x? btw. in my opinion on the board we can cbet about 70%-80% because if villain just call we can make him fold on scare T and R (of course not against mindfull villains). What do you think about this? thanks

Last edited by TK1991; 11-30-2017 at 03:33 AM.
why so low bet size? Quote
12-02-2017 , 08:12 AM
Our range is relatively weak on this flop, plus numerous draw potential, we can go for bbx line for value.

Vs more aggressive villains we can check back flop to induce bluffs (also stop them check-raising us off our hand).

Last edited by Vagine; 12-02-2017 at 08:18 AM.
why so low bet size? Quote

      
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