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Old 09-24-2018, 11:32 AM   #1
trebe
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Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

89s than it is to call with K10o or I think I even read one article that said K10s?

In cash games I have been doing this if in a good position but I don't feel comfortable doing it and don't really understand why.

Are there any circumstances when it is better to do not do this? Also where is the limit? Is KJo or KQo a better or worse hand to call a 3 bet with than 89s or 910s? I understand some charts, facts and figures will probably be needed to completely explain this and I'm all for that, but I also would like a simple explanation if there is one.

Also is it better to 3-bet myself with 89s than it is to do so with say KJo or KQo? For arguements sake lets say on the button and UTG+1, the 2 extremes.
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Old 09-24-2018, 11:52 AM   #2
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

The hands that 3bet you generally share cards with KQ/KJ/KT so if you make a pair there is a good chance you're outkicked. If 89s hits even if it is behind it has more outs than a hand that shares cards.
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:03 PM   #3
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

98s is generally* a better hand to call 3-bets with than KTo, because it typically has more equity vs villain's 3-bet range, and - being suited and connected - it also realizes that equity better.
e.g. Suppose villain's betting range on a flop like Jc 7d 6s contains hands like JJ, AJ and A5s. Against that simplified range KhTd has just under 17% equity, but it never realizes it, because it has to fold on the flop. 98dd, by contrast, has 37.5% equity, and can realize all of it, because it can call flop and turn with an OESD (and can turn a BDFD). On many flops, 9-high will actually have more equity than king high, and it's seldom going to be dominated when it makes a pair. (KT gets crushed by AA, KK, AK, KQ, KJ on Kxx flops and AT+, TT+ on Txx).

* If stacks are much shorter, then most of the equity is realized on the flop, because you're usually in a "shove or fold" spot if you have <20bb on the flop. In those spots, top pair hands are slightly better than speculative/drawing hands like 98s. The latter is playable over multiple streets, so benefits from deep stacks and a high SPR. With short stacks, high cards are more valuable, as you're just trying to make top pair and get all in.

Hence in a deep stacked cash game, you'd be more likely to call a 3-bet with 98s than KTo, but in a SpinGo or a HUSNG (with sub 20bb stacks), KTo would often be a better call vs a 3-bet.

In 100bb cash games, offsuit Broadways are stereotypically classed as "trouble hands". A lot of bad players lose a lot of money with them. You should mostly avoid calling 3-bets with hands like QJo or even KQo and AJo. KTo is just garbage vs most 3-bet ranges.
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:19 PM   #4
trebe
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

So in cash game with 100b I should be 3-betting everytime regardless of posistion with 89s+? Also where is the extremes of this? Should I be doing it with 54s?
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:40 PM   #5
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

You should never do anything everytime in poker
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:47 PM   #6
trebe
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfour View Post
You should never do anything everytime in poker
I get that, I was really asking how often would you do it on average
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:58 PM   #7
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Is 45s in a 3-bet range? If so when would that be?

Last edited by King Spew; 09-25-2018 at 03:52 PM. Reason: hurt feelings derail
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Old 09-24-2018, 01:19 PM   #8
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

As a beginner, folding speculative hands (low pairs, SCs, Asmall-suited) is a more prudent approach until you have attained a better post-flop game.
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:42 PM   #9
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebe View Post
So in cash game with 100b I should be 3-betting everytime regardless of posistion with 89s+? Also where is the extremes of this? Should I be doing it with 54s?
We were talking about calling 3-bets with 98s if you were the raiser. You should only be doing that if you have position, such as when you open in the CO and the SB 3-bets.

I tend to avoid 3-betting 98s for reasons I won't go into here, but I will sometimes 3-bet 76s, 65s, 54s on the button vs an MP or CO open (especially if I know the tendencies of my opponent), as those hands play pretty well as 3-bets in position. Until you've learned how to play 3-bet pots with value hands (QQ+ and AK), I would not advise playing bloated pots with 6-high. You really need to learn the basics of position and valuebets/bluffs before you start 3-betting light. I played for about 3 years before I felt confident enough to 3-bet with A5s, let alone 54s.
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Old 09-25-2018, 04:53 AM   #10
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
We were talking about calling 3-bets with 98s if you were the raiser. You should only be doing that if you have position, such as when you open in the CO and the SB 3-bets.

I tend to avoid 3-betting 98s for reasons I won't go into here, but I will sometimes 3-bet 76s, 65s, 54s on the button vs an MP or CO open (especially if I know the tendencies of my opponent), as those hands play pretty well as 3-bets in position. Until you've learned how to play 3-bet pots with value hands (QQ+ and AK), I would not advise playing bloated pots with 6-high. You really need to learn the basics of position and valuebets/bluffs before you start 3-betting light. I played for about 3 years before I felt confident enough to 3-bet with A5s, let alone 54s.
Thanks for the help, mucho appreciado.
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Old 09-25-2018, 05:42 AM   #11
PokerPlayingGamble
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Hold'em Simulation ?
83,902,896 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Equity Wins Ties
KsJc 29.00% 24,004,952 656,332
5% 71.00% 59,241,612 656,332
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker


Hold'em Simulation ?
97,601,328 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Equity Wins Ties
8s9s 28.08% 27,133,497 542,895
5% 71.92% 69,924,936 542,895


It's not, and you should fold both.
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Old 09-25-2018, 05:47 AM   #12
Kelvis
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
Hold'em Simulation ?
83,902,896 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Equity Wins Ties
KsJc 29.00% 24,004,952 656,332
5% 71.00% 59,241,612 656,332
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker


Hold'em Simulation ?
97,601,328 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Equity Wins Ties
8s9s 28.08% 27,133,497 542,895
5% 71.92% 69,924,936 542,895


It's not, and you should fold both.
If only postflop play depended purely on 5 card equity.
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Old 09-25-2018, 06:41 AM   #13
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

The simple explanation is that you expect the hands in your 3bet calling range to not lose money compared to folding.

For the charts, facts and figures you should start by finding out the flop equity of a potential calling hand vs Villain's 3bet range and then you can decide if it's worth learning how to battle for it postflop.
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Old 09-25-2018, 01:40 PM   #14
antialias
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Quote:
I tend to avoid 3-betting 98s for reasons I won't go into here,
I'm curious...is it because you sometimes make the dog-end of the straight that the AK/KQ type hands make the high end of? (unlike with the lower SCs)
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Old 09-25-2018, 02:22 PM   #15
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by antialias View Post
I'm curious...is it because you sometimes make the dog-end of the straight that the AK/KQ type hands make the high end of? (unlike with the lower SCs)
Yes, that's part of it.
I wrote a semi-legendary post on why I much prefer 65s to 98s.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1600
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Old 09-26-2018, 05:00 PM   #16
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Makes good sense. Yes, I like the low suited connectors too. Particularly for the stacking potential and lack of overlap with the hands you can represent as a bluff.
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Old 09-27-2018, 01:52 AM   #17
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

most players that get into these spots by open raising with those weak hands are the ones that shouldnt be doing it in the first place.
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Old 09-27-2018, 11:02 AM   #18
antialias
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

I would like to discuss the merits of opening in early position with middling to low-ish suited connectors (once a while...certainly not nearly every time you get them)

Merits I see:
1) you represent a strong range and might take it down preflop
2) you can continuation bet on any A or K high board and stand a decent chance of taking it down against 1-2 opponents (strongly dependent on how people play at the table. if c-bets rarely work this is probably not a good strat)
3) Many non-AK-high boards you will connect with and can start building a pot (or at least continue with decent equity)

In all cases (except case 3 if villain shows at showdown and you are beat) you may opt to show your hand afterwards - showing opponents that you're prepared to take their chips with hands way outside the standard ranges (which you, of course, should play from then on only extremely rarely)

Result?
- People may call your early position raises light. Or call you down with mediocre holdings making value bets more profitable.
- People might start playing easily dominated hands (like KJ) against your EP raises.

Last edited by antialias; 09-27-2018 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 09-27-2018, 12:18 PM   #19
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by antialias View Post
I would like to discuss the merits of opening in early position with middling to low-ish suited connectors (once a while...certainly not nearly every time you get them)

Merits I see:
1) you represent a strong range and might take it down preflop
2) you can continuation bet on any A or K high board and stand a decent chance of taking it down against 1-2 opponents (strongly dependent on how people play at the table. if c-bets rarely work this is probably not a good strat)
3) Many non-AK-high boards you will connect with and can start building a pot (or at least continue with decent equity)

In all cases (except case 3 if villain shows at showdown and you are beat) you may opt to show your hand afterwards - showing opponents that you're prepared to take their chips with hands way outside the standard ranges (which you, of course, should play from then on only extremely rarely)

Result?
- People may call your early position raises light. Or call you down with mediocre holdings making value bets more profitable.
- People might start playing easily dominated hands (like KJ) against your EP raises.
In what kind of game?

If you open too wide from UTG in an online game above the micro stakes, you will be punished unless you are one of the rare postflop crushers.

It doesn’t really matter if you have AA or 54s in a specific preflop spot. What matters is that the regulars behind you know what percentage of the time you have those weak-ish holdings (because their HUD shows them) and react appropriately.

That said, SCs down to 76s are part of most 15%-ish opening ranges.
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Old 09-28-2018, 03:29 PM   #20
antialias
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Quote:
In what kind of game?
Tournament (not hyper turbo. I'd say 20+minute levels). With some pressure to push thin edges in a tournament this can be effective in making people misjudge your range early on and be slow to twig to your more 'standard' ranges.
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Old 09-30-2018, 09:20 AM   #21
Singasong2222
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by antialias View Post
I would like to discuss the merits of opening in early position with middling to low-ish suited connectors (once a while...certainly not nearly every time you get them)

Merits I see:
1) you represent a strong range and might take it down preflop
2) you can continuation bet on any A or K high board and stand a decent chance of taking it down against 1-2 opponents (strongly dependent on how people play at the table. if c-bets rarely work this is probably not a good strat)
3) Many non-AK-high boards you will connect with and can start building a pot (or at least continue with decent equity)

In all cases (except case 3 if villain shows at showdown and you are beat) you may opt to show your hand afterwards - showing opponents that you're prepared to take their chips with hands way outside the standard ranges (which you, of course, should play from then on only extremely rarely)

Result?
- People may call your early position raises light. Or call you down with mediocre holdings making value bets more profitable.
- People might start playing easily dominated hands (like KJ) against your EP raises.
Then smash you on flop turn or river as there better players

I would stay away hands like that unless you know you have preflop skills.
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Old 09-30-2018, 06:38 PM   #22
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Re: Why is it better to call a 3 bet with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singasong2222 View Post
Then smash you on flop turn or river as there better players

I would stay away hands like that unless you know you have preflop skills.
Did you mean to say post flop
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