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Old 06-21-2008, 08:26 AM   #1
nawledge4pwr
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when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

I have a question regarding the following paragraph taken from the beginner's FAQ:

Whereas implied odds are important to consider in all forms of poker, they take on special significance in big-bet games such as no-limit hold'em. It's not an exaggeration to say that winning at large-stack no-limit depends on the implied odds derived from getting poor opponents to pay off your monster hands. For example, if you play a highly speculative hand such as a small pair or connectors, you may well be willing to pay "too much" (judging by limit hold'em standards) to see a flop. When you do hit, if your opponents will pay off most or all of their stacks, then you're justified in taking a gamble with positive expected value.[italicized by me]

My question is regarding how we calculate if we are paying too much with suited connectors/small pairs or not. Now implied odds might say that calling a raise with suited connectors is a good bet based on the size of your opponents stack but what about the chances of our opponent(s) hitting a hand they would call off their stack with. Shouldn't we take this into account too? So here is where I think our judgements can get a little muddled. 1. We must know the chances that our opponents will make a second best hand and 2. We must also know each of our opponent's minimum standards for stacking off against us.

How should we fulfill the last two criteria when determining if playing suited connectors against a particular (or particular set of) opponent(s) is profitable?

The only reason I ask is because I have the habit of always playing suited connectors/small pairs in position (not against a raise however) and I'm wondering if this could be a leak or if not calling raises with these hands against certain opponents is a leak.

Thoughts?
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Old 06-21-2008, 08:54 AM   #2
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

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Originally Posted by nawledge4pwr View Post
The only reason I ask is because I have the habit of always playing suited connectors/small pairs in position (not against a raise however) and I'm wondering if this could be a leak or if not calling raises with these hands against certain opponents is a leak.

Thoughts?

What do you mean you don't play them against a raise? Are you saying that if someone raises you fold small pocket pairs? Even if it's a normal 4 big blind raise and the stacks are 100 big blinds? That is insanity.

Also I play 6max but 22+ is a raise for me in any position asuming no one has already raised. And I also often raise 54s+ from MP, CO, and button.




Anyway for suited connectors read this:


http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...0&fpart=1&vc=1
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Old 06-21-2008, 09:08 AM   #3
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

[QUOTE=Lego05;4743821]
Quote:
What do you mean you don't play them against a raise? Are you saying that if someone raises you fold small pocket pairs? Even if it's a normal 4 big blind raise and the stacks are 100 big blinds? That is insanity.

Also I play 6max but 22+ is a raise for me in any position asuming no one has already raised. And I also often raise 54s+ from MP, CO, and button.
I'm glad I posted this. I didn't know you were supposed to play speculative hands against raises, or raise with them for that matter (although I've heard you should raise them sometimes for deception value but it sounds like you do it for more than deception value). I was always under the impression that you wanted to see cheap flops with speculative hands and I guess I considered a 4xbb raise to not be cheap, but maybe in comparison to a 100 bb stack it is cheap. I learn new things every day. And the answer was a yes to all of your questions. nawledge4pwr = insane man (at least he was until he read your post).

Do you make the same plays with speculative hands in full ring games or just 6 max? (Haven't checked out the link yet, though I'm about to).

Would you go so far as to say that you should always call 4xbb raises with SCs and PPs or just against opponents who seem like they would pay you off or maybe not against certain kinds of players who seem like solid players who wouldn't pay you off?

Last edited by nawledge4pwr; 06-21-2008 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 06-21-2008, 09:25 AM   #4
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

dbitel made a great thread that I have lost. Basically the math comes down to with pocket pairs to play just for set value (set value being the value of hitting a third one on the flop) you need to on average make 11.7 TIMES the pre-flop investment when you do make a set. So if you call a 4BB raise you need to on average make 46.8BB's the times that you flop a set. So stack sizes and your opponent's ranges are important......but most of the time you get a pocket pair you should be seeing a flop. I'm not at home right now or I would look at Poker Tracker and tell you my VP$IP with pocket pairs. (However, one spot to not call would probably be against a good player who raises a whole lot on the button....if you're in the blinds than folding 22-66 or so is probably good there.)



Also as for raising them yourself....both pairs and suited connectors.......if you raise them you can win it pre-flop....or you can fire a c-bet on the flop and win it there without having really made a hand. (You might want to start out raising suited connectors from just the CO and the button. Startout playing tight and gradually open up your game as you become better at playing post-flop.)


As for your 6max vs. full ring question I don't really play full ring but I suspect I still would raise them.....but only from the same positions.....I'd fold suited connectors in the EP's at FR and maybe some of the smaller pairs also....maybe.
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Old 06-21-2008, 09:29 AM   #5
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

Read this too:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...ESSID=&fpart=1


And This:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...Number=5348855



And This:


http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...Number=6073737


And maybe this too:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...rt=1&vc=1&nt=5



And here's a very good collection of a lot of other great threads:


http://www.pr0crast.com/2+2.NL.Anthology.v1.htm
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Old 06-21-2008, 09:35 AM   #6
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?


HOLY CRAP THANKS MAN THIS IS LIKE FREIKEN CHRISTMAS!!!
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Old 06-21-2008, 09:42 AM   #7
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

[QUOTE=nawledge4pwr;4743897]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05 View Post

I'm glad I posted this. I didn't know you were supposed to play speculative hands against raises, or raise with them for that matter (although I've heard you should raise them sometimes for deception value but it sounds like you do it for more than deception value). I was always under the impression that you wanted to see cheap flops with speculative hands and I guess I considered a 4xbb raise to not be cheap, but maybe in comparison to a 100 bb stack it is cheap. I learn new things every day. And the answer was a yes to all of your questions. nawledge4pwr = insane man (at least he was until he read your post).

Do you make the same plays with speculative hands in full ring games or just 6 max? (Haven't checked out the link yet, though I'm about to).

Would you go so far as to say that you should always call 4xbb raises with SCs and PPs or just against opponents who seem like they would pay you off or maybe not against certain kinds of players who seem like solid players who wouldn't pay you off?
Calling a 4xbb raise with 22+ is great (as long as you and the opponent(s) have significant enough stacks).
One common scenario:
-The raiser has big hand, say AK
-You call with 44.
-Flop is 47A
-Lots of people are willing to stack off with that TPTK and it is almost impossible for them to know that you flopped a set and have them beat.

That is the key benefit of the small pairs/SCs. It is almost impossible for your opponents to know that you flop such a big hand. You just have to hope that they hit something that they will over-commit with, like TPTK, an overpair, etc. Just make sure that when you flop your monster, bet out and don't let them out draw you without overpaying for it.
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Old 06-21-2008, 02:22 PM   #8
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

Nice links Lego
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:12 AM   #9
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

Quote:
Would you go so far as to say that you should always call 4xbb raises with SCs and PPs or just against opponents who seem like they would pay you off or maybe not against certain kinds of players who seem like solid players who wouldn't pay you off?
You are certainly going broke if you overdo this at any level where there are a few thinking players because it is a very obvious what your overcalls mean and you will get exploited for doing it, especially by shortstackers.
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:04 AM   #10
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

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Originally Posted by LunaEqualsLuna View Post
You are certainly going broke if you overdo this at any level where there are a few thinking players because it is a very obvious what your overcalls mean and you will get exploited for doing it, especially by shortstackers.
You obviously shouldn't be calling raises by shortstackers if you have sm.PPs or SCs since you don't have the implied odds if you hit.

How would someone exploit your call of a raise with these kinds of hands?
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:32 AM   #11
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

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Originally Posted by nawledge4pwr View Post
You obviously shouldn't be calling raises by shortstackers if you have sm.PPs or SCs since you don't have the implied odds if you hit.

How would someone exploit your call of a raise with these kinds of hands?
They can't, a balanced cold-calling range of PPs and SCs (in position) is unexploitable, which is the entire reason people cold-call with suited connectors, it balances ranges and merges semi-bluff and set lines while letting you float co-ordinated boards.

As long as the stacks are deep enough, it's theoretically un-exploitable, and it helps if you throw in AA or AK once and awhile.
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:35 AM   #12
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Angry Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nawledge4pwr View Post
You obviously shouldn't be calling raises by shortstackers if you have sm.PPs or SCs since you don't have the implied odds if you hit.

How would someone exploit your call of a raise with these kinds of hands?
By some one behind you reraising so you no longer have odds to call...

Also I'm not referring to calling vs shortstackers, i'm referring to shortstackers left to act.

shortstackers love to do this (especially out of the blinds) and i've actually noticed a lot of guys at as low as 10NL doing this quite a lot, squeezing cold calls by reraising all in from late position with any two big cards any pocket pairs and often any Ace hand. (I have at least 20 players at 10NL and 10 at 25NL who i have marked down as making this play routinely so i will only cold call hands i'm willing to call against their shove )

Quote:
They can't, a balanced cold-calling range of PPs and SCs (in position) is unexploitable, which is the entire reason people cold-call with suited connectors, it balances ranges and merges semi-bluff and set lines while letting you float co-ordinated boards.
Wrong it is exploitable.

The original raiser may not be able to exploit you but everyone else left to act can (and if they are any good they will - read about the squeeze play) If a shortstack shoves any two big cards or pocket pair and some other assorted trash, you will be pretty hard up to keep calling off ~20BB's preflop with 78 suited even if you know he is reraising light you won't be able to call a lot of the time (especially with SCs)

Last edited by LunaEqualsLuna; 06-22-2008 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 06-22-2008, 11:32 AM   #13
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

Stack sizes are the first thing you should take into account. You want to play small pairs and suited connectors against deep stacked players and especially against poor players who gladly stack off with TPTK/overpair, then insult you because "omg u called my 4bb raise with pocket 3's wat a donk, aces arnt supposd tolose".

If the raiser has less than 10$ (at 25nl), dont ever bother playing such cards against him unless the odds are good that other players behind you will call (and not raise). Vs shortstackers you want to play hands that are more of a sure value.

in short.... know your enemies
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Old 06-22-2008, 12:35 PM   #14
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

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Originally Posted by LunaEqualsLuna View Post
By some one behind you reraising so you no longer have odds to call...

Also I'm not referring to calling vs shortstackers, i'm referring to shortstackers left to act.

shortstackers love to do this (especially out of the blinds) and i've actually noticed a lot of guys at as low as 10NL doing this quite a lot, squeezing cold calls by reraising all in from late position with any two big cards any pocket pairs and often any Ace hand. (I have at least 20 players at 10NL and 10 at 25NL who i have marked down as making this play routinely so i will only cold call hands i'm willing to call against their shove )



Wrong it is exploitable.

The original raiser may not be able to exploit you but everyone else left to act can (and if they are any good they will - read about the squeeze play) If a shortstack shoves any two big cards or pocket pair and some other assorted trash, you will be pretty hard up to keep calling off ~20BB's preflop with 78 suited even if you know he is reraising light you won't be able to call a lot of the time (especially with SCs)
I said THE RANGE is unexploitable, whether or not CALLING is exploitable in 6max is a whole other topic, if a micro-stack is squeezing EVERY TIME you call, obviously you stop calling and start 3betting ... but here's the catch, your 3betting range is identical to your calling range, so your just trading implied odds for folding equity + isolation.

Also, stop pretending light 3betting and squeezing even happen that often at 1/2NL and below, a moron short stack pushing behind you isn't a squeeze, it's a moron short stack donking off his money into an UTG raiser who has the good sense to call or shove over the short stack light.

I don't think you're dealing with what you think you're dealing with at 10 and 25NL, it sounds like short stack slider or push bots that don't care who or how many people raised or called in front of them.
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Old 06-22-2008, 02:02 PM   #15
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Angry Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

Quote:
I said THE RANGE is unexploitable, whether or not CALLING is exploitable in 6max is a whole other topic
The original question was:

Quote:
How would someone exploit your call of a raise with these kinds of hands?
To which one answer IS by reraising. At least look at the question that s being asked.

Sure you can then stop cold calling and raise instead, but obviously the original strategy is exploitable since you had to change it
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Old 06-22-2008, 02:06 PM   #16
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

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Originally Posted by LunaEqualsLuna View Post
You are certainly going broke if you overdo this at any level where there are a few thinking players because it is a very obvious what your overcalls mean and you will get exploited for doing it, especially by shortstackers.

Uh...what? There are not very many thinking micro stakes players. Pocket pairs are very very profitable. Though yea against a 20BB shortstacker of course you can't setmine.
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Old 06-22-2008, 03:16 PM   #17
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

You really shouldn't be worried about shortstacks behind you squeezing after you call a raise especially at microstakes......I don't think there are actually any real shortstackers at micro stakes....just bad players who don't want to lose too much money.
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Old 06-22-2008, 03:27 PM   #18
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Angry Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

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Originally Posted by Lego05 View Post
You really shouldn't be worried about shortstacks behind you squeezing after you call a raise especially at microstakes......I don't think there are actually any real shortstackers at micro stakes....just bad players who don't want to lose too much money.
Yeah its not necessary to worry about it (at uNL) but one should at least know that is is exploitable, and in what way.,,even if the overwhelming majority of ones opponents aren't going to capitalise on it (at the level they play at).
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Old 06-22-2008, 03:33 PM   #19
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaEqualsLuna View Post
The original question was:



To which one answer IS by reraising. At least look at the question that s being asked.

Sure you can then stop cold calling and raise instead, but obviously the original strategy is exploitable since you had to change it
If you want to take the OP's statement out of context in order to justify your tangent, ok, but it's clear he meant how would they (they, as in the pre-flop raiser) exploit calling with suited connectors. Notice how your statement about "if you call with PP and SC's, you'll go broke, especially against short stacks" doesn't specify whether or not the short stack is the pre-flop raiser, and the OP then phrases his question under the assumption that we're talking about the pre-flop raiser in his following post until you clarify what you meant?

Reading comprehension dude, some one exploiting you when you call with suited connectors (the subject of OP's thread) and some one exploiting you when you call are two different things. If you aren't willing to call in 6max because some one may squeeze behind you, then yipee kai yay for you, you'll never get implied odds on your speculative hands when UTG shoves right over your re-raise, while OP will set mine profitably because what you're talking about doesn't exist at those stakes.

Edit: I like how you bold call while disregarding the rest of the sentence, with these kinds of hands. Sophism 4TW!
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Old 06-22-2008, 04:00 PM   #20
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Re: when are we paying too much with suited connectors?

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Originally Posted by LunaEqualsLuna View Post
Yeah its not necessary to worry about it (at uNL) but one should at least know that is is exploitable, and in what way.,,even if the overwhelming majority of ones opponents aren't going to capitalise on it (at the level they play at).

That still doesn't mean you should stop doing it.
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