when to throw away kings preflop - Beginning Poker Questions

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when to throw away kings preflop

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07-23-2018 , 07:27 AM

partyboy365

newbie

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 25

when shoul I throw away kings preflop?

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07-23-2018 , 07:34 AM

Aces123123

adept

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 784

For cash games:
Never, as long as villain doesn't expose a pair of aces.

For tournaments:
Whenever under extremley heavy icm pressure

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07-23-2018 , 08:04 AM

sixfour

should be called sevenfour

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 74,764

If you're asking in BQ, never

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07-23-2018 , 08:09 AM

SpewingIsMyMove

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 3,529

Leaving aside the ICM case where it may be right to fold anything (including AA or KK)

Fold KK pre when you can put someone on a range that is strictly AA. That will usually be a 1) very tight player with no bluffing range, 2) making a cold 3 or 4 bet, 3) in a high buy in tournament. As alluded to above, a beginner is almost never going to be able to make this read correctly, and it is almost always negative EV to fold KK. A lot of beginners over value JJ+, so they will cold 3 bet or 4 bet shove with those hands, and a lot of advanced players have a wide 3 bet and 4 bet range which includes some bluffs. So putting someone on AA is pretty hard.

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07-23-2018 , 08:34 AM

amarri

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 397

When I start dumping KK pre flop in a 1/2 or 2/5 cash game is when I make starting playing Golf as my new hobby.

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07-23-2018 , 08:41 AM

ArtyMcFly

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 13,256

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove

Fold KK pre when you can put someone on a range that is strictly AA.

...and you don't have the right price to call.

Such situations are rare, but they do come up occasionally. e.g. You open KK UTG for 3bb, MP 3-bets, CO cold 4-bets, BTN 5-bet jams 100bb.

Even if BTN is loose/bad enough to have QQ and AK in his range sometimes, the fact that you're not closing the action (MP and CO could also have AA) means KK should probably be a fold in this spot. You don't want to call 97bb when you are almost certainly crushed by at least one of the opponents.

With better pot odds and different action sequences (e.g. you cold 4-bet, and UTG+MP fold to the 5-bet), calling has a better expectation.

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07-23-2018 , 09:06 AM

BDHarrison

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 4,529

I find that this scenario is more likely to happen than the one Arty described.

A passive player raises. You reraise. He shoves all-in for a large amount when he is deep enough that some players would put in a 4bet for less than all-in. You have played with him enough to have seen him just call a re-raise with KK on multiple occasions and he normally limps preflop with AK. I would feel comfortable folding KK to this player.

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07-23-2018 , 11:15 AM

Bene Gesserit

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 6,365

Most of the time it is not a wise move to fold KK pre flop. For a beginner or for a less experienced player I would simply never fold KK pre and likely take my lumps on those rare occasions where the opponent holds AA. Now , of course, after the flop the dynamics of playing KK can change totally. That is another question , another set of answers.

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07-23-2018 , 12:07 PM

Kurn, son of Mogh

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 16,232

Quote:

Originally Posted by amarri

When I start dumping KK pre flop in a 1/2 or 2/5 cash game is when I make starting playing Golf as my new hobby.

With the exception of satellite bubbles and when playing super deep, if I ever fold KK preflop, take me out and shoot me.

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07-23-2018 , 12:33 PM

#10

warped

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 638

If you never fold KK pre you’re not making a lot of mistakes. This doesn’t mean you need to jam your entire stack in if you have 500BBs either though

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07-23-2018 , 05:08 PM

#11

BDHarrison

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 4,529

I think a reasonable question for a beginner to ask is when should you not put in another raise with KK preflop and just call instead.

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07-23-2018 , 05:14 PM

#12

MMSS

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 4,679

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDHarrison

I think a reasonable question for a beginner to ask is when should you not put in another raise with KK preflop and just call instead.

No it's a complete waste of time.

What we care about is spots we are losing in as a function of how often we are in those spots. If you raise KK preflop at any point you are at worst making a tiny mistake a tiny amount of the time. Of all the things you can work on in poker as a beginner this is one of the most common wastes of time. You'd make infinitely more money learning how to play BTN vs blinds.

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07-23-2018 , 06:50 PM

#13

WorldzMine

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,604

The best question of all is why do newer players always ask this question? Why do new players constantly want to fold KK preflop? It's just such a strange and foreign concept that I can't understand. I never wanted to do this when I was starting out, so I have no clue where their thinking on this comes from tbh.

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07-23-2018 , 07:02 PM

#14

MMSS

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 4,679

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldzMine

When you GII you either lose to AA which is OMG SO UNLUCKY. or lose to weaker hands BUT I HAD KK (or win but you should win so always win).

Or you you get flatted and stack off when you're clearly behind because you got KK preflop and therefore you're entitled to stacks.

I played a hand earlier today where MP opened, two callers, I raise from BB w/AKs, MP raises small to folds I flat. Flop Axxr villain bets I call. Dead turn, villain shoves (reasonable bet size given pot) I call. Villain had KK.

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07-23-2018 , 07:40 PM

#15

BDHarrison

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 4,529

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSS

I sometimes don't 3bet with KK. Why is probably well beyond the level of a beginner forum, but I generally want to discourage people from black-or-white thinking. Don't be afraid to question conventional wisdom.

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07-23-2018 , 07:46 PM

#16

MMSS

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 4,679

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDHarrison

Which is literally nothing to do with what I said.

If you want to get good at poker learn math and psychology and then by default you question lots of conventional wisdom because the vast majority of it is nonsense. But do learn them from non-poker related sources because then you'll have a job and prospects and be beating basically everyone.

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07-23-2018 , 09:08 PM

#17

7OAD

banned

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 500

Almost never unless you have over 100 hands on someone and they're playing something like 10/5/1 and they 5bet you while both over 100 bb deep relatively late.

ICM wise, you can probably only find folds if you're both chip leaders and everyone else has like 1-5 blinds or is super close to busting.

Honestly, I've probably played a few hundred k hands and I've only ran into one situation where I should've folded kings (5b pot 200 bb deep hu on a monotone board that I had none of).

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07-23-2018 , 09:17 PM

#18

Kelvis

banned

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 8,737

eh never

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07-24-2018 , 05:05 PM

#19

pocketshades

newbie

Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 39

There's certain spots in live games (2/5 and below) that you can. You need several hundred hours of play with someone, but I've found several spots with KK where villain has never 4 bet or 5 bet jammed pre ever on me and it's literally only AA. Folded then, and the times they showed I was right.

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07-24-2018 , 08:41 PM

#20

SpewingIsMyMove

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 3,529

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldzMine

People new to any activity want to try and define it by defining boundaries, defining extremes. They are attracted to the activity by the dramatic, when the real artistry is in the mundane. It is why everyone always asks about how far you can drive a golf ball, but no one asks you how accurate you are with your irons.

People want to know when they can do the God-mode laydown. The real answer is, almost never.

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07-25-2018 , 01:07 AM

#21

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,323

In a cash game, the action would have to be something like:

I open in EP, someone else in EP 3! me, someone in MP 4! or after the EP 3! the SB or BB jams for at least 100BB.

If I’m first to open in MP or LP and face similar action I am never folding.

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07-25-2018 , 05:06 PM

#22

WorldzMine

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,604

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove

Yeah, it's just commonly known that the vast majority of new players aren't known for being uber-nits, so I always find it strange when they want to be an uber-nit when it comes to the second-strongest starting hand that should make them a ****-ton of money getting it in pre. Does not follow.

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07-25-2018 , 06:48 PM

#23

whitemares

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,762

There are rare spots in cash games (particularly micro stakes zoom) where you should fold kings preflop, but I don't think it's practical to worry about them as an inexperienced player

So "never" is a good answer

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07-26-2018 , 09:51 PM

#24

DalTXColtsFan

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,516

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldzMine

It's memory bias. On nitty online sites, even at the microstakes, it is not at all uncommon to be shown AA when you GII pre with KK. People tend to remember the bad beats but forget the times the other guy had QQ, JJ or AK (or something worse).

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07-27-2018 , 02:24 PM

#25

antialias

grinder

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 590

Shove and a reshove by stacks that are big enough that they are nowhere near desperate...and hero sitting on a big stack himself in an ICM situation
(Particularly if small stacks are at the table such shoves are even tighter because of ICM)

Basically this hand from the WSOP 2018 main event final table

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvDjFtPt5So

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