I recently noticed my out of position winrate is horrendous and I suspect that these hands are a big weakness for me.

I imagine it's normal to have a negative winrate here, but what is a normal bb/100 rate for a winning player in this stat? Just so I know how wrong I'm going.

Thanks

Except for the two blind positions, you don’t want to have a negative winrate from any position.

You should be winning from EP-BTN (getting higher as you get closer to the button) SB anything less than -50bb/100 is winning from that position, anything better than -100bb/100 is winning from the BB.

Me playing 2-16nlz I have the following (~7.5k hands in each position which is a tiny sample)

EP - 16bb/100
MP - 23bb/100
CO - 21bb/100
BTN - 45bb/100
SB - -33bb/100
BB - -54bb/100

You would expect CO > MP so that's variance and I think 20-30 is reasonable.
I think the SB and BB should be less negative optimally but leaks and shitty rake don't help + I'm nothing special.

That's a 3.5bb/100 winrate overall.

I'm talking specifically about being out of position post flop, regardless of preflop position. Should you still be positive here?

Apart from OTB where I am losing with a filter of OOPtrue on flop (which are all ins pre so makes no sense anyway) my winrates in each position are better than the stats I posted above.

This is probably because it filters out all the bet/folds from various positions that don't make it to post-flop.

Interesting, so if you're seeing flops you should be +ev overall even out of position.
This confirms my suspicions that I'm a massive fish post-flop then lol
Thanks for the response

I wouldn't make that conclusion from my small sample until others have said. There is nothing to suggest I am doing something majorly wrong.

If folding is 0EV though and you are filtering out all of your folds by doing this you certainly shouldn't be losing money from UTG-BTN with that filter. I would also expect your SB and BB to be better because you are filtering out all of the times you don't defend (but are losing out on when you defend by raising and villains fold).

especially in 3betpot ，dont play in oop

I don't think it really helps to look at that stat without having a boatload of other information to provide context.

If other players are super loose preflop, it's hard to make money without going to the flop but relatively easy post flop. If other players are nitty preflop, it's easy to make money without going to the flop but relatively difficult post flop.

It depends which filters you run, but yes, you should be winning with hands that see a flop. If a hand doen't make money post-flop (except in SB/BB where you just want to lose less than the cost of paying the blind), you should have folded pre.

If I start with a sample of 125,000 6-max hands where I had an EV of 5bb/100, and filter simply for "saw flop=true", and set "all in pre-flop=false" in order to remove hands where I had no post-flop decisions, I did pretty well:



I'm a nit with a modicum of post-flop skill.

If I add the advanced filter "Last to act on flop = False", in order to remove hands where I was in position, then the sample size shrinks considerably, so the results are subject to a lot of variance. I still did pretty well UTG and in MP and had a positive EVbb/100 in every position:


I was confused to see 2 hands listed for the BTN, but apparently HEM gets confused when it's multiway on the flop and one of the blinds is a short stack that got all in pre. I clearly was still last to act in those 2 hands, which can be ignored. (I wish I could win at 3615bb/100 forever though!)

If you're doing very badly UTG and in MP (or indeed SB/BB) when you run these filters, the usual causes are:
* Opening too wide in those positions.
* Calling too many 3-bets when you're OOP.
* C-betting too much when you're OOP.

When I'm OOP post-flop, I do a lot of checking, and about half the time the checks are followed by folds. Many players c-bet way too often when OOP, and end up bloating pots that they are destined to lose.