Doesn’t even really matter what stakes it is. If you play NLHE in a pool where the majority of opponents is at least a semi-pro, you’ll have a very hard time beating the game if you haven’t done any solver work or have access to solutions for the majority of common spots.

FWIW, I highly doubt you beat NL200 on a site like Stars 5 years ago if you “were unable to properly implement” fundamental concepts. At least not if you multitabled.

With respect, I've played a lot of fast-fold poker over the last few years (I played 100NL and 200NLz in 2016-17-ish). I know how the pools play. You might see erroneous plays from the 25z regs on Party but someone of your sort of skill level is highly unlikely to be able to beat them post-rake, given you're raking about 8.5bb/100 at these stakes. I'd apply that equally to myself.

It's a bit like when Bjorn Borg came out of retirement and thought he could beat all the young kids with their huge graphite rackets when he was still using a little wooden one from the 1970s. :/
FWIW, I suspect a significant amount of Fast Fwd regs are using real-time assistance tools with pre-computed "GTO" solutions. i.e. Enough of them play like "bots" to make beating the game for a decent bb/100 (pre rakeback) is close to impossible for so-so regs. That problem isn't limited to Party Poker though.

Alright So, it's even much worse than pure bots. Wow, I guess it is dead after all, didn't know it's that bad, not even mentioning that it's illegal. But after googling a bit I found out things like HUD-converters for party and what not, probably if two bots sit on the same table and you're chasing a flush draw they could also share their hole cards to see if you have any outs left etc.

Ok, I gotta digest that

How do they know you're chasing a flush?

I’ve been playing 5nl fast forward on party and it definitely seems very robotic and you see quite a few of the same names in the pool at all hours of the day

The last couple of days have been better. Interestingly, everyone I marked as a bot stopped playing and I get the impression I'm playing vs humans. Hmmm. Won 15 buyins yesterday, ran really good though. I guess, it's not dead after all. People just do not stack off as mindlessly as they were doing it 5 years ago. Although it still boggles my mind why everyone is just check calling, it's quite different from when i used to play. Basically hardly anyone value bets two pair on the river after turn gets c/c, seems very weird which is why I stopped value betting too thinly on the river and it's been very +EV for me so far. In any case I seem to have learned a lot from the pool and don't feel as lost as two weeks ago.

The GTO-**** is throwing me off though, for 25nl just don't call an all-in raise like EVER regardless of GTO, it's not worth it. I'm tired of sometimes calling of with one card of the suit when the villain is repping a flush, it's never good. Maybe you get bluffed once in a blue moon but it's not worth it, forget the solvers.

I actually get the impression that a lower limit with a juicy rakeback and rake race might be at least as profitable as a higher limit for not the best reg out there. And it's way way less stressful which of course affects EV so taking into account the stress factor it might be even more profitable. Something I haven't thought about when playing nl200 back in the day :-D

I don't know about holdem but in PLO fast forward most of the "regs" are horrible. They have blatant leaks and poor hand selection but play 24/7 with 100% rakeback so they still win in the end I guess.

I guess computer assisted PLO is nowhere near the same level as it's for NL. In any case I guess I'm going to be parting with party (pun intended) soon. I just get the same freaking feeling as here, every time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajRuO9qamJ8 Although I've adjusted quite a bit, nl25 fast forward isn't beatable for me prob. due to the rake structure. Although actually I'm going to be a super slight winner in the end due to insane rakeback. But it's still not worth it playing for 10 cent per hour. No idea where to play though, I'm used to be playing with rakeback so that sucks.

I played 4 times de daily races and took 3 first places and 1 second. at NL5-NL10 went break even before rakeback and price.

Played about 16 hours 9 tables of FF for 1st and 13 hours for 2nd

I'll say its very profitable for a bad reg like me with the ability to no life it for a day

Get a life bro :-D 9 tables FF seems for 16 hours seems insane. I would keep my mouth shut if I were break even due to the insane rakeback but I'm not lol.

well there are some god grinders that go harder and play looser. many of them stopped playing tho maybe bots that got caught?

It seems ridiculous to me that every single player I marked as bot before starting this thread (around 10) stopped playing within two days of my creating this thread.

It's insane how much this format on partypoker tilts me. I'm playing 200 hands a day to get the freaking 6 points to spin the ragnarok wheel and that's it. I guess I'm going to freaking find a coach to beat nl25 fast forward on party, it's becoming a matter of principle. How can I post a hand here? When I press on "Hand History Converter" there is some ****ing internal error.

I believe it has been down for some time but I will forward this to our developers to let them know. We are planning to build a completely new converter but I assume that will need to wait until after 2+2 moves to their new 'Vanilla' forum software.

For now you will need to use the HM2/3 or PT4 Hand History Viewer forum export option, or run a raw copy of the hand through a 3rd party hand history converter/site.

Fozzy71
Customer Support

I use this site to convert hands (link below) and then the forum code.
https://upswingpoker.com/convert/

Thanks, trying with the upswing converter. Today's session in a nutshell, quit cause of tilt:

Am I supposed to fold this nowadays with all the GTO-****ing-masters out there?

partypoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

Player3 (UTG): $99.21 (397 bb)
Player4 (MP): $40.84 (163 bb)
Player5 (CO): $52.33 (209 bb)
Player6 (BU): $31.91 (128 bb)
Player1 (SB): $26.54 (106 bb)
Hero (BB): $39.62 (158 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero (Hero) is BB with A♠ A♣
Player3 (UTG) raises to $0.75, 2 players fold, Player6 (BU) calls $0.75, 1 fold, Hero (BB) 3-bets to $3, Player3 (UTG) calls $2.25, Player6 (BU) calls $2.25

Flop: ($9.10) 6♠ T♦ K♠ (3 players)
Hero (BB) bets $5, Player3 (UTG) folds, Player6 (BU) calls $5

Turn: ($19.10) A♥ (2 players)
Hero (BB) bets $7, Player6 (BU) raises to $23.91 (all-in), Hero (BB) calls $16.91

River: ($66.92) J♠ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $66.92 (Rake: $3)

Showdown:
Player6 (BU) shows J♣ Q♣ (a straight, Ten to Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 23%, Turn: 77%, River: 100%)

Hero (BB) shows A♠ A♣ (three of a kind, Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 77%, Turn: 23%, River: 0%)

Player6 (BU) wins $63.92



The very next hand. I guess it's misplayed, call turn, fold river? Although I sometimes think that folding flop is also an option, I'm dead serious.
partypoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

Player3 (UTG): $25.10 (100 bb)
Player4 (MP): $25.10 (100 bb)
Hero (CO): $25.00 (100 bb)
Player6 (BU): $26.75 (107 bb)
Player1 (SB): $45.44 (182 bb)
Player2 (BB): $25.79 (103 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero (Hero) is CO with A♣ A♥
2 players fold, Hero (CO) raises to $0.62, Player6 (BU) calls $0.62, 2 players fold

Flop: ($1.59) T♣ 5♥ Q♣ (2 players)
Hero (CO) bets $1, Player6 (BU) raises to $3, Hero (CO) calls $2

Turn: ($7.59) 7♠ (2 players)
Hero (CO) checks, Player6 (BU) bets $7.70, Hero (CO) raises to $21.38 (all-in), Player6 (BU) calls $13.68

River: ($50.35) 4♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $50.35 (Rake: $2.51)

Showdown:
Hero (CO) shows A♣ A♥ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 31%, Turn: 18%, River: 0%)

Player6 (BU) shows T♥ Q♥ (two pair, Queens and Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 69%, Turn: 82%, River: 100%)

Player6 (BU) wins $47.84

Confirmed bot. This **** happens all the time and is exactly what I mean, bots everywhere. Oh wait I hold the Ace of clubs, sure why raise.
partypoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

Player3 (UTG): $25.00 (100 bb)
Player4 (MP): $25.50 (102 bb)
Hero (CO): $47.27 (189 bb)
Player6 (BU): $31.59 (126 bb)
Player1 (SB): $29.83 (119 bb)
Player2 (BB): $58.38 (234 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero (Hero) is CO with A♠ A♣
2 players fold, Hero (CO) raises to $0.62, 1 fold, Player1 (SB) calls $0.52, Player2 (BB) calls $0.37

Flop: ($1.86) J♣ 4♣ 8♥ (3 players)
Player1 (SB) bets $0.88, Player2 (BB) folds, Hero (CO) raises to $2.50, Player1 (SB) calls $1.62

Turn: ($6.86) 7♥ (2 players)
Player1 (SB) checks, Hero (CO) checks

River: ($6.86) 3♣ (2 players)
Player1 (SB) checks, Hero (CO) bets $2.50, Player1 (SB) calls $2.50

Total pot: $11.86 (Rake: $0.59)

Showdown:
Hero (CO) shows A♠ A♣ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 83%, Flop: 66%, Turn: 75%, River: 0%)

Player1 (SB) shows K♣ T♣ (a flush, King high)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 17%, Flop: 34%, Turn: 25%, River: 100%)

Player1 (SB) wins $11.27


This hand didn't get saved by party for whatever reason.
I'm in UTG with QQ, villain calls in BB with AKo, flop 333 I bet he raises I 3bet he goes all in I call, river K.

I'm done for today. See you tomorrow. Played 200 hands, span the wheel 6 times, didn't win the 1K.

Stop posting bad beats. Nobody cares. It won't help you improve.

Hand #1: I would bet bigger OTT, but it's just a cooler mate.

Hand #2: I don't think your jam ever gets looked up by worse after he raised you OTF.

Hand #3: Are you complaining about V not raising you? Also why aren't you betting the turn for value?

They aren't really bad beats, H1 is.

Hand 2 is setting money on fire.
Hand 3 not betting the turn seems really bad, so you're basically betting what here?

It really is typical player from years ago comes back, doesn't realise how much harder poker is then moans about losing.

Can we close this thread.

Isn't any aces cracked a bad beat as the worst hand won the hand?

ok, you've been away from poker, but as a former professional (I assume) you need to take a deep breath and realise that you need to stop having this entitlement tilt. My assumption, based on the way you're playing these hands, is that you've come back to poker, decided that, based on your past experience, you must be a big winner at the microstakes, and also decided that everyone playing 25NL is doing insane **** 24/7.

I'm not going to comment on the strat of these hands, but I'd honestly recommend taking a deep breath, and remembering two things:
1) you are not entitled to beat these limits
2) you probably need to do a lot of work on your game to be nearly as good as you were five years ago

if you were beating games like 200z on stars or similar in 2015, 25NL on party now is absolutely not more difficult than that game (the reg:fish ratio is substantially better, and there are plenty of weak regs). However, that doesn't mean you're winning in it.

in the nicest possible way, based on those HHs, you need to sort your mental game out because right now it's pathetic.

True :-D Thanks for the input, I was playing on fulltilt and ipoker back in the day and was a super slight winner, so definitely not a pro. Also I wasn't playing zoom which seems to be a lot a lot harder, I was playing normal tables with stats, so no table without at least one fish basically. But yeah, you're right :-D Going to be using this thread as my mental "well" :-D I have serious hands I need help with though, I get absolutely owned in 3 bet pots, it's not funny.

If I get it all in pre with aces against kings and a king comes on the flop, that'd be a bad beat. If I try to trap the guy with kings by just flatting his open and then getting it all in with a king on the flop, that's not a bad beat. But, as you say, nobody cares

Ah alright, also yeah lol.

So, here are my problematic spots where I feel like I get absolutely owned cause people just shove rivers all the time:

Hand #1

partypoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

Player3 (UTG): $27.08 (108 bb)
Player4 (MP): $25.71 (103 bb)
Player5 (CO): $74.05 (296 bb)
Player6 (BU): $24.40 (98 bb)
Player1 (SB): $26.67 (107 bb)
Hero (BB): $25.54 (102 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero (Hero) is BB with T♦ T♣
2 players fold, Player5 (CO) raises to $0.60, 2 players fold, Hero (BB) 3-bets to $2.50, Player5 (CO) calls $1.90

Flop: ($5.10) 8♥ 9♠ 6♣ (2 players)
Hero (BB) checks, Player5 (CO) bets $1.70, Hero (BB) calls $1.70

Turn: ($8.50) 6♦ (2 players)
Hero (BB) checks, Player5 (CO) bets $4.50, Hero (BB) calls $4.50

River: ($17.50) 5♥ (2 players)
Hero (BB) checks, Player5 (CO) bets $65.35 (all-in), Hero (BB) folds

Total pot: $17.50 (Rake: $0.87)
Player5 (CO) wins $16.63

Hand 2
partypoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

Player3 (UTG): $87.53 (350 bb)
Player4 (MP): $18.60 (74 bb)
Player5 (CO): $30.45 (122 bb)
Player6 (BU): $26.59 (106 bb)
Player1 (SB): $87.87 (351 bb)
Hero (BB): $26.10 (104 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero (Hero) is BB with A♥ K♥
Player3 (UTG) raises to $0.57, 4 players fold, Hero (BB) 3-bets to $2.50, Player3 (UTG) calls $1.93

Flop: ($5.10) 5♦ 7♣ J♣ (2 players)
Hero (BB) bets $2.50, Player3 (UTG) calls $2.50

Turn: ($10.10) A♦ (2 players)
Hero (BB) bets $6, Player3 (UTG) calls $6

River: ($22.10) T♣ (2 players)
Hero (BB) checks, Player3 (UTG) bets $15.54, Hero (BB) folds

Total pot: $22.10 (Rake: $1.10)
Player3 (UTG) wins $21

Hand #3
partypoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

Player3 (UTG): $36.74 (147 bb)
Player4 (MP): $64.42 (258 bb)
Player5 (CO): $26.23 (105 bb)
Player6 (BU): $51.77 (207 bb)
Player1 (SB): $44.10 (176 bb)
Hero (BB): $44.08 (176 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero (Hero) is BB with A♠ K♠
2 players fold, Player5 (CO) raises to $0.62, 2 players fold, Hero (BB) 3-bets to $2.50, Player5 (CO) calls $1.88

Flop: ($5.10) 3♥ Q♦ 4♦ (2 players)
Hero (BB) bets $2.25, Player5 (CO) calls $2.25

Turn: ($9.60) A♥ (2 players)
Hero (BB) bets $6, Player5 (CO) calls $6

River: ($21.60) 7♦ (2 players)
Hero (BB) checks, Player5 (CO) bets $15.48 (all-in), Hero (BB) folds

Total pot: $21.60 (Rake: $1.08)
Player5 (CO) wins $20.52

Hand #4
partypoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

Player3 (UTG): $30.18 (121 bb)
Player4 (MP): $44.94 (180 bb)
Player5 (CO): $69.78 (279 bb)
Player6 (BU): $34.40 (138 bb)
Hero (SB): $25.00 (100 bb)
Player2 (BB): $25.15 (101 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero (Hero) is SB with A♥ K♣
2 players fold, Player5 (CO) raises to $0.62, 1 fold, Hero (SB) 3-bets to $2.50, 1 fold, Player5 (CO) calls $1.88

Flop: ($5.25) T♠ J♣ 6♥ (2 players)
Hero (SB) bets $2, Player5 (CO) calls $2

Turn: ($9.25) 5♦ (2 players)
Hero (SB) bets $5.50, Player5 (CO) calls $5.50

River: ($20.25) K♠ (2 players)
Hero (SB) checks, Player5 (CO) bets $9.62, Hero (SB) folds

Total pot: $20.25 (Rake: $1.01)
Player5 (CO) wins $19.24

Any competent feedback is very welcome. I absolutely get destroyed in these spots. Although I have to say that I can't remember a single spot where I c/called river all in and was right.
Also it seems that AK is an unplayable because people just call 4bets IP all the time, I dunno if that's the new GTO-meta of wtf is going on and if an A or a K doesn't come on the flop, I dunno what to do.