Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Beginners Questions Poker beginner? Ask your (possibly) naive question here and our community will attempt to help you.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-20-2020, 03:57 PM   #1
PokeEm
enthusiast
 
PokeEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 52
Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Hello Players!

I've been trying to think which way is best to achieve an end goal which is to win at least five-figure prize money ($xx,xxx) per year if you could afford to lose three-figure money per month. For example, let's say I could afford to lose $300 per month and end goal is to win $30,000 per year. I see there are several ways to do this by online tournament game selections:

1) Daily grind many smaller tourney games

2) Create your own steps tournaments by playing smaller game first, whatever prize you won, step up and use win prize money as the next buy-in.

3) Play weekly tournament games $75 buy-in ($300 / 4 weeks).

4) Play the game once a month $300 buy-in.

5) Play cash table/SnG to build bankroll and increase number of tournament entries...if this is what you'd prefer to do, what game selection would you do with combination of cash table, SnG and tournaments?

I'm not sure the correct terminology for this type of management. What do you believe is best "management" to achieve the end goal with a monthly risk?

Good luck at da table!
PokeEm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2020, 04:11 PM   #2
LaloSalamanca
newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 37
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokeEm View Post
Hello Players!

I've been trying to think which way is best to achieve an end goal which is to win at least five-figure prize money ($xx,xxx) per year if you could afford to lose three-figure money per month. For example, let's say I could afford to lose $300 per month and end goal is to win $30,000 per year. I see there are several ways to do this by online tournament game selections:

1) Daily grind many smaller tourney games

2) Create your own steps tournaments by playing smaller game first, whatever prize you won, step up and use win prize money as the next buy-in.

3) Play weekly tournament games $75 buy-in ($300 / 4 weeks).

4) Play the game once a month $300 buy-in.

5) Play cash table/SnG to build bankroll and increase number of tournament entries...if this is what you'd prefer to do, what game selection would you do with combination of cash table, SnG and tournaments?

I'm not sure the correct terminology for this type of management. What do you believe is best "management" to achieve the end goal with a monthly risk?

Good luck at da table!
I would focus on sattelites and try get higher buy ins with smaller fields
LaloSalamanca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2020, 08:52 AM   #3
harddude
journeyman
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 220
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Quote:
Play the game once a month $300 buy-in.
This is the only chance you have of making $30,000 this year with a high chance of ruin.
If you wanna grind for 2-3 years perhaps you can move up within that time and maybe make 30,000 with 100 buy-in bankroll.
harddude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2020, 03:58 PM   #4
PokeEm
enthusiast
 
PokeEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 52
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Quote:
Originally Posted by harddude View Post
This is the only chance you have of making $30,000 this year with a high chance of ruin.
If you wanna grind for 2-3 years perhaps you can move up within that time and maybe make 30,000 with 100 buy-in bankroll.
Mmmm...what about the middle ground between once a month buy-in and daily grind for 2-3 years? For example, do daily $10 SnG until make $60 then go for $60 buy-in tournament with $60,000 GTD?
PokeEm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2020, 08:21 PM   #5
MMSS
Pooh-Bah
 
MMSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,303
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

You are not going to make 5 figures from playing poker any time soon.
MMSS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2020, 08:52 PM   #6
PokeEm
enthusiast
 
PokeEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 52
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMSS View Post
You are not going to make 5 figures from playing poker any time soon.
Can you elaborate?
PokeEm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 08:36 AM   #7
sixfour
should be called sevenfour
 
sixfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tungsten Analysis
Posts: 66,744
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Very simply it's not 2006 and the games aren't easy enough to beat at levels where you can make that amount
sixfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 11:31 AM   #8
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,724
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Quote:
Can you elaborate?
And if you were a favorite to make five figures playing poker, this wouldn't be the question you'd ask. Honestly, few people that I've met who made serious money playing poker started out with a monthly earn as a goal. They mostly were intrigued by the game, and worked at finding spots where they could improve. Some of them had the goal of being really good. Others just saw the whole thing as a challenge. Poker sucks as a get rich quick scheme.


Personally, I was pissed at the guy who ran our home game for keeping win/loss records and publishing them. I said, "screw that guy" and got decent at poker to spite him. Started going to casinos to play in tougher games, again to prove a point -- he couldn't win in casinos. Then I started playing online because 2+2 hand history reviews seemed like a good way to learn. Then I got crushed playing 6m, and had to learn how to play shorthanded... Each step of the way fueled by being annoyed at not being good enough. Others may have different stories. I guess I tried out the SNE grind for a little while, considering monthly earn. Quit that because mass tabling for hours sucks. It was profitable.
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 12:01 PM   #9
harddude
journeyman
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 220
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokeEm View Post
Mmmm...what about the middle ground between once a month buy-in and daily grind for 2-3 years? For example, do daily $10 SnG until make $60 then go for $60 buy-in tournament with $60,000 GTD?
still high chance of ruin.

Best way is to play poker everyday playing mutiple mtt's everyday and looking to get good. Best way is to have enough money to keep you in the game. If that means playing $1 mtts instead of $100 Mtts do that.

Quote:
Daily grind many smaller tourney games
This is what you need to do. Take your $300 and play 3 dollar and below mtts. next month you should be able to move up to $5 mtts. End of the year you could be playing $22 mtts.
harddude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 12:06 PM   #10
PokeEm
enthusiast
 
PokeEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 52
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Ahh, thanks sixfour & DougL!

I guess it's not easy thing to do...I got inspired by Doug Polk's challenge story via YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...S-bqzYrvSmMz7s

I thought to myself, if Doug Polk started with only $100, I might've have better chance by adding $100 to $200 every month from my work income toward bankroll. In another word, I would risk $1,200 to $2,400 per year.

MMSS, sixfour & DougL believe this is not a possible feat. I guess Doug Polk got lucky!
PokeEm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 12:11 PM   #11
PokeEm
enthusiast
 
PokeEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 52
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

harddude,

thanks for your advice!
PokeEm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 12:11 PM   #12
King Spew
Antici
 
King Spew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: pation
Posts: 12,385
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Polk...er,,,, "lucky"?

....probably has more skill than the typical poker wannabe
King Spew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 12:28 PM   #13
PokeEm
enthusiast
 
PokeEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 52
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

King Spew, what do you think of harddude's advice for wannabes?
PokeEm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 12:40 PM   #14
King Spew
Antici
 
King Spew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: pation
Posts: 12,385
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

PokeEm, my opinion is that harddude gives mostly poor or outright bad advice in Beginners Questions. But even a blind squirrel gets lucky every now and then.

I also believe that harddude espouses tournaments over cash play as THE way to make it as a poker player. I tend to disagree with that idea; my thoughts are that players should choose a form of poker they like. As an example, I much prefer full-ring NL online and limit poker in a casino because it is what I enjoy. Therefore I study the games I play.

If you like tourneys.... play and study tourneys. People generally excel at what they enjoy.

Back to your question, my advice is to read enough posts in BQ to determine for yourself who the good posters are....and who the posers are.

GL
.
.

Last edited by King Spew; 05-23-2020 at 12:48 PM.
King Spew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 12:47 PM   #15
MMSS
Pooh-Bah
 
MMSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,303
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

He means me, I'm the good poster!

The thing to remember about Doug is that he already beats and has evidence that he beats all those games. It is very different for someone to do a bankroll challenge where the only real issue is volume as opposed to getting better and beating the games.

I could do a $100 to $10000 challenge it would just take forever as in the games I know I beat my hourly is tiny and the challenge of getting good enough to beat higher games is something I will probably never do.

I'm fairly certain Doug also doesn't grind the stakes he says he will and move up following "BRM" because he always realises that even bottom of the rung stakes play pretty well (compared to years ago) and even with an 8bb/100 win rate (or something silly high compared to what most haeve) at 25nl your hourly still sucks.
MMSS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 01:30 PM   #16
PokeEm
enthusiast
 
PokeEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 52
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

King Spew,

I haven't visited 2+2 forum much until this month. I'll read more posts in BQ to get feel of who the posters are...

When I first started learning how to play poker, I read my first poker book which was Ed Miller's Getting Started in Hold 'em. I fell in love with limit poker. Then I realized there's not much limit poker games online. So, I ended up playing full-ring NL online. The only problem is I couldn't "grind" because people kept leaving the table whenever my stack grew. So, I ended up playing SnGs & tournaments.


MMSS,

I guess that's kind of dilemma for newbies...if he's starting to improve his game, then what? Continue grind for peanuts and slowly move up the limits or go for hail mary?
PokeEm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 02:12 PM   #17
MMSS
Pooh-Bah
 
MMSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,303
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

You are not going to make any money from poker if your mindset at the start has anything to do with making money.

Even if you make 3bb/100 grinding 100nl zoom 500 hands per hour that's $15 an hour. That sucks and would be very respectable. That is literally years of work away and most don't get close to it.

edit - Just to make it very clear that isn't some unobtainable goal or anything and obviously is hardly the ceiling of poker I'm just saying to get to that point takes a lot of time and effort and the vast majority of people get nowhere near that.
MMSS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 02:52 PM   #18
PokeEm
enthusiast
 
PokeEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 52
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

MMSS,

Thanks for the reality check!
PokeEm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 02:58 PM   #19
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,724
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMSS View Post
The thing to remember about Doug is that he already beats and has evidence that he beats all those games. It is very different for someone to do a bankroll challenge where the only real issue is volume as opposed to getting better and beating the games.
As a HSNL crusher, the math is different. My general recommendation would be for aggressive BRM, but there's always the thing about "you have to be good enough to beat both your current limit and the next limit or two up". Otherwise, aggressive BRM is just moving up to where you can't win and then losing it back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokeEm View Post
I fell in love with limit poker. Then I realized there's not much limit poker games online.
If you like limit poker, I know current LHE pros who play mid and high stakes online. The game still exists, if you want to play it.
Quote:
I guess that's kind of dilemma for newbies...if he's starting to improve his game, then what? Continue grind for peanuts and slowly move up the limits or go for hail mary?
Aggressive BRM and shot-taking can make a lot of sense at limits where you can easily replace losses from beer money. Just be sure you're not a losing player in the limits you're shot taking up to. As a newer player, the most valuable thing you can do it to get good at poker. Everyone starts at bad. Then is not as bad. Then, barely OK to OK. Then decent. Good is a long way off. No skipping rungs on the ladder, unless you're gifted. What was the quote, "the more I practice, the luckier I get"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMSS View Post
edit - Just to make it very clear that isn't some unobtainable goal or anything and obviously is hardly the ceiling of poker I'm just saying to get to that point takes a lot of time and effort and the vast majority of people get nowhere near that.
My old standby advice for people wanting to go pro was, "Once you make so much money playing poker as a hobby that it makes zero sense to keep your day job, you'll know it is time to go pro."


Let's be honest. A lot of the famous people who moved up to the high stakes took advantage of HU and really shorthanded games, where they could basically kill whales to make a lot of income. They were good enough to play with 3 utterly killer pros and one whale, if they had to. HUHU tables don't exist any more. You think they made their real $ reg battling? Seems doubtful. You're waiting for another poker boom for really easy games. I used to crush 20+2's and 30+3's (SNGs) on Paradise, not knowing how to play NL. Those are real stakes right now?
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 04:26 PM   #20
MMSS
Pooh-Bah
 
MMSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,303
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
As a HSNL crusher, the math is different. My general recommendation would be for aggressive BRM, but there's always the thing about "you have to be good enough to beat both your current limit and the next limit or two up". Otherwise, aggressive BRM is just moving up to where you can't win and then losing it back.
The more I've been around the more I take the line that unless you are a pro you don't have a bankroll. If you can't afford it you shouldn't be using it and you should shot take super aggressively and spend tonnes of time studying.

But to give that advice to a new player or someone unaware of the underlying thoughts behind it is awful advice as it just leads to spewing off a roll. I reckon if you have evidence you beat 2nl you can easily move up when you have 5BI for a limit at about 10nl as long as you are stick moving up/down and you almost never go broke because when your roll hits $20 you have 10BI for that but you have to be working your ass off studying to not just float around whatever stake it is you beat.
MMSS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2020, 04:38 PM   #21
PokeEm
enthusiast
 
PokeEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 52
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL
As a HSNL crusher, the math is different. My general recommendation would be for aggressive BRM, but there's always the thing about "you have to be good enough to beat both your current limit and the next limit or two up". Otherwise, aggressive BRM is just moving up to where you can't win and then losing it back.
Ahh...move up limit as quickly as possible to where you can't win, analyze your weak spots, improve the game until you're good enough to beat your current limit then repeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL
My old standby advice for people wanting to go pro was, "Once you make so much money playing poker as a hobby that it makes zero sense to keep your day job, you'll know it is time to go pro."
I guess it's like playing golf as a hobby, you'll never know how good you will become. Just enjoy playing your best.
PokeEm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 05:13 AM   #22
harddude
journeyman
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 220
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

the best advice is to quit all forms of gambling including poker and do something else in your life like actual honorable work and go and help out people who have less than you and cant or will not repay you. it's called charity.
harddude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 04:21 PM   #23
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,724
Re: Tournament Game Selections & Bankroll Management

You're presenting a false dichotomy. Charity and recreation aren't and either/or proposition. You can be a charitable person who does or doesn't gamble. You can be the world's least charitable person and never gamble, drink, or cuss.



The reason most people play poker is to have fun. The proportion of people on this forum who play for supplemental or their full income is higher, but especially in the more rec-heavy forums, people play poker for fun or for the challenge. Telling all of them to stop playing poker and helping people is silly. Do you go to the start line of your local triathlon, the bar down the street, or the dock at the start of a fishing tournament and tell everyone, "stop wasting your time and money on this, you should do honorable work and help people"?
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online