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Old 12-01-2017, 09:04 PM   #1
Ishipit
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Today's all in kk v aa

So I don't know if this is the best place to post hands. I'm new around here so just wanted to get your opinions on a very simple situation to make sure I'm playing this right...

1/2nl

I'm in the hijack w KK. There's about 3 limpers in front of me and I raise to just 6 to try to get some action. It folds through the BB then the open limper 3 bets me to 18 with 180 left behind. Everyone else folds. I 4 bet to 55, he shoves and has me covered, I call. He's got the rockets n I find no K...

Do you guys 4bet there? Or sometimes just flat? Does it depend on the opponent?


I had never played with this guy, but he was obviously better than most of the table and this was the 1st time I saw him 3 bet... the limp/raise puzzled me a little.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:14 PM   #2
madlex
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Re: Today's all in kk v aa

Your stack size might be important, we only know that you have less than $198.

Getting it in with KK isn't the problem here, but you shouldn't do it in the most obvious way possible. Raising small "to get some action" and then putting in the 4bet pretty much eliminates any bluffs from your range if you are perceived as a tight, solid player.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:19 PM   #3
Ishipit
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Re: Today's all in kk v aa

Our stacks were almost identical.
I think I had like 5-10 less than him.

Ya normally with 3 limpers in front of me I would've raised to 12. But I've been varying bet sizing a little to keep my range open. The kings were not the only raise with limpers in front that I made just 6 today.

Also, do you ever fold to the shove? Maybe if the opponent is super tight and hardly ever tricky???
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Old 12-02-2017, 07:26 PM   #4
Tutejszy
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Re: Today's all in kk v aa

12 is still too small, players in live games like to call a lot, Id go smth like 15 or even more. Also, changing your preflop betsizing based on the strength of your hand is REALLY bad, and anyone with half a brain will instantly figure out what you are doing and will exploit you really hard.

Finally, your 4bet size is too large, your standard 4bet sizing should be around 2,5x the 3bet, going a bit smaller or larger depending on stacks depth and wether or not you have position (NOT on your hands strength). In this case, with shallow stacks and in position, I would smth like 42-46.

So yeah, stacking off with KK for 100bb is super standard, you did however make few mistakes earlier in the hand.
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Old 12-02-2017, 10:58 PM   #5
Ishipit
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Re: Today's all in kk v aa

Ok.. I had been kind of going with the 3x rule on 3betting. But ya the 4bet being a little less makes sense. 2.5x still gets the job done. And you may get called more often by TT-QQ than you would with a full 3x. AA is obviously always re-raising anyway..

maybe with the 2.5x he doesn't even shove all the way for the 5bet then you have an option to flat, see the flop, n save some of your stack??
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Old 12-02-2017, 11:02 PM   #6
Ishipit
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Re: Today's all in kk v aa

As for the limpers... I've been usually going with 3x the BB + the total of all the limpers $ in the pot if I want to raise it. (So I should be raising a little more than that? Like that 12 + the SB + call the BB = 15?) Or if I want them all out, I bet at least 30 there, or sometimes when shorter stacked I just shove preflop.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:10 AM   #7
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: Today's all in kk v aa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishipit View Post
As for the limpers... I've been usually going with 3x the BB + the total of all the limpers $ in the pot if I want to raise it. (So I should be raising a little more than that? Like that 12 + the SB + call the BB = 15?) Or if I want them all out, I bet at least 30 there, or sometimes when shorter stacked I just shove preflop.
This a good rule of thumb and can be tweaked situationally. in later rounds of an MTT, for example, you can go lower than 3bb+1bb per limper. In cash games, players tend to call wider, so a larger base bet may be necessary, depending on the table. 4bb or 5bb + 1bb per limper may be correct, depending on the table. It is tricky, because there is a fine line between running off everyone and getting no action on your KK, or making a bet that the first limper calls, pricing everyone esle in, and now you are playing KK against 4 callers in a bloated pot, which is a recipe for a trip to the ATM.

Resist the tendency to alter your bet size based on what you want them to do based on the strength of your hand (unless you are willing to also alter your bet size opposite of what you want them to do as well). Betting the strength of your hand is a pretty exploitable tell.
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Old 12-05-2017, 01:13 AM   #8
answer20
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Re: Today's all in kk v aa

Good advice all around, but let's look at what you actually did since it's very prevalent in low limit live poker ...

1) You raised to get action .. you got action. Why would you re-raise to scare away what you desire?

2) What hands do you really think are going to continue once you 'limp' 4-bet? Which is basically what you did.

I like to mix up my bets, you did here as well but don't jump right back into the 'standard' MO for what you would've done if you hadn't mixed things up in the first place.

Every table has a 'standard' opening bet, raise and 3-bet sizing. Your job is to find how each player might respond to differences in those plays and adjust accordingly. My opening bets are 7, 11 and 16 regardless of limpers in most cases. I use these for my whole opening range so opponents are still guessing about my hand strength.

But what I don't do either is play the same way post-Flop. I adjust my aggressiveness based on the players left in the hand, my position, how likely those players are to believe I hit the Board and how likely I think they hit the Board. I have a very wide range so this plays into my style.

Of course you want to be aware of pot and remaining stack sizes as well. Poker is about winning the war, not winning every battle. Sometimes you have to let a battle go the other way in lieu of taking down the war in a future hand.

Would this hand have changed had you flatted the 18? Probably not, but I think the lesson learned here is you got fooled by your own 'creativeness'. Your opponent had no clue what you were holding ... until you told them ... and then they shoved 'anyway' with the smallest possible range known to poker (AA/KK/AK, maybe QQ) for most live 1/2 players you have no history with.

'Standard' is fine, but when you do get creative make sure that you look at your own story from the outside looking in when you are lucky enough to be at a table where the cards just happen to work 'for' you in the spot or you have an opponent or two that will recognize a change in your MO and take the bait. GL
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:36 AM   #9
rds25
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Re: Today's all in kk v aa

Definitely depends on the opponent. Idk what this guy was thinking open limping AA when 1/2 live tends to be a limpfest. I think a larger initial raise would've been a better option, although he still likely would 3bet anyways, but you want to be careful to not let all the limpers call your raise of 6 - something I've seen smaller raises after multiple limpers result it. Tough beat man.
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