Hello I’ve been playing at this new underground game in New York (we have a bunch of them) they Imitate real casinos and most of them are very professional and have the same general rules regarding “Doing business” “angle shooting” “cheating” etc.. if there is ever a problem amongst two or more players at the table usually the dealer handles it and if he or she can’t the house “people who run the game” handle it.

My Question is I was in a heads up pot with a new player for $1200 I had AKo he had A8 of clubs the flop comes out QQ5 with two clubs I bet he calls turn is 9 of diamonds this is were I go All in and the pot is $1200 a pretty big pot for a $1/3 game he snap calls I take it upon myself to ask him because we are now heads and assuming I might be behind and because a lot of players do this there and the house doesn’t challenge it

I ask “ how many times would you like to do business” he says twice I didn’t like that answer not wanted to do twice maybe three times but we didn’t even get that far because I off of instinct ask do you have a flush draw or something? He chooses to respond and say I can’t tell you that!

Which he is right I know he has the right to not say anything at all or speak but he says that and I just had a feeling my ace high might be good I say honestly I just want to do it once before any cards are flipped from what I understand of “doing business” it is up to the players in the hand we couldn’t come to

An agreement but I flip over my hand he sees the AK with no club and freaks out and says no no no u agreeded to do it twice ! I get if I was trying to get a read maybe Subliminally and didn’t mean I would be frowned upon I even agree with that much but did I do anything illegal in the rules?

That is my question?

The house favored him and said even tho I didn’t agree it is messed up that I asked him heads up what he had and for that it will run out twice where he caught his flush and we split the pot.

They also pulled me aside and said he’s a new player and it’s bad for the house and that was the logic behind the ruling...

PLEASE CAN SOMEONE GIVE ME INSIGHT OR SOME PROOF THAT I DID ANYTHING WRONG OR RIGHT it is really important to me because I don’t want to go back there now but still want to know what any dealers or other underground places or even experienced players have to say about this Decision!!!

Thank you!!

for the love of god don't write walls of text like that, paragraphs or even the occasional full stop would be nice

simple answer is in unlicenced games, anything goes

I don’t think you did anything wrong based on “standard” rules.

That said I am 100% OK with the floor deciding in his favor. You offer to run it multiple times, unsolicited, and then change your mind when you see that you’re ahead. That’s such a clown move and the last thing the house wants is for a new player to think stuff like that is the norm in their place.

And the saddest thing: You probably won the first runout and lost the second one. Otherwise this thread wouldn’t even exist.

This is no reason to 'not' go back to the room .. necessarily. The real lesson here is that the Floor ruled in favor of the room by not wanting to rule against a new Player. That is a trend that you want to watch out for since you would have to assume they might also lean in favor of a Reg v a Semi-Rec in other situations.

As far as the RIT (we don't call it doing business) .. Rooms allowing this open up the door to conflict, but it's also pretty much become a standard option.

1) Very unlikely that there's specific language within the room policy about RIT that would prevent a Player from talking about their hand. IMO if there was a room rule about given off information it would not apply since you are already all-in.

2) Don't turn your hand over until you have an agreement.
2A) Don't turn your hand over until you get verbal confirmation from the other Player as to how you are going to run it .. even to the point of putting up a stop sign for the Dealer.

3) Player opinion is different with RIT. Some say you as a Player shouldn't go back and forth, only applying one option for all Players in all spots. (I disagree) Obviously a Player may not understand why you want to go once with someone else but not them and this can create conflict/emotion baggage.

4) Don't ask questions you may not like that answer to ... "Would you like to run it once or three times? I don't want to go twice here." Now you have narrowed the options down and eliminated a discussion point.

5) Why did you give him an option if you just wanted to run it once? Or did you decide that after he wouldn't say what he had? This is another talking point. Do you have to come to an agreement before you reveal your holding or can it be part of the discussion? This can vary by the Player and thus can create spots if a Player isn't flexible.

There are LOTS of RIT threads here on this site, you can search for them to see more opinion.

Proof? Give us the house rules and we will let you know. In general the Players have a short amount of time to come to an agreement. Very rare would a Floor get involved. As I put above, you shouldn't have asked an open ended question and probably shouldn't show your cards before verifying any agreement. If a Player says he has one thing and really has something else then that's another lesson learned and don't even consider RIT with that Player going forward. GL

PS ... How would you feel if after all this conversation that he flipped over Q4o?

Other than the obvious 'It didn't work out this time', why do you care if you ran it once, twice, or three times?

Why are you antagonizing a player willing to play a big pot preflop with ace rag suited?

Why aren't you using paragraphs?

Why are you using the discussion of running it once or twice as a way of getting info on the opponents hand? Many would consider this acting in bad faith and a form of angle shooting?

And, as many people have pointed out, why are you tabling your hand before you have a clearly confirmed agreement?

And yes, from your recollection, where you present exactly your side, what you thought you said, and what you thought happened, it looks like the other player was wrong. I guarantee you the other player would tell a different story about a guy angling by backing out of an agreement, and the floor would tell a story about two guys bickering, so he told them both what they wanted to hear privately so they would keep dumping hundreds of dollars with ace high into the pot.

Even if it went down 100% like OP said, I think the ruling would be justified by being in the best interest of the game.

Just imagine the following scenario: Cocktail waitress comes over, Bud Light in one hand, Heineken in the other and asks OP if he wants to have a beer. He answers "yes, Heineken please". Her response is "I don't want to give you the Heineken" and a couple seconds later "and since you have a picture of your dog on your phone, you're not getting a beer at all".

Now OP complains to the floor about the waitress and he makes her hand over the Heineken. Sounds reasonable to me.

For this to be a valid, though, the waitress never offered a heineken. She would have said 'Do you want a beer', player would have said 'Yes, a heineken (though why, I can't figure)'. The waitress would have said 'All we have is bud', then said 'Since you a left handed I am not going to give you a beer at all'. Then the floor comes and binds the waitress to an offer she never made or agreed to.

If it went down exactly as OP said, floor held the player to a deal he never offered or agreed to.

I suspect that the communication on what was offered and what was accepted was not nearly as unequivocal or clear as OP thought it was. I can see it as

Player one 'How many times do you want to run it?'
Player two 'Lets do twice?'
Player one, after thinking a bit mumbles 'No' (and tables hand)

In that exchange player two could very well have thought the deal was agreed to.

The waitress didn't offer Heineken specifically but had two different bottles in her hands and asked if he wanted to have a beer. OP didn't offer anything specifically, but asked about running it multiple times which (99% of the time) means twice or three times.

That's certainly true. But OP offered to run it multiple times and I have no problem with a floor ruling that offer to be binding. Now OP might not have wanted to run it exactly twice but seriously, who gives an F? If I'm the floor, I want the game to move on ASAP. I also have zero interest in the rest of the table thinking that those kinds of shenanigans are acceptable in my game.

I would totally agree that a floor shouldn't make a ruling that impacts the EV of any player involved. But that's not happening here, all the money is in the pot and running it twice doesn't change the EV.

FWIW, situations like this one provide rooms with a great excuse to add another dollar of rake for RIT pots. Halting the game over something like that is just plain ridiculous.

I agree I shouldn’t have turned over my hand just like he shouldn’t have basically said he was on a flush draw I know it sounds crazy with ace high but I’m mad because I made the right move and your totally right what if he did have a queen I was prepared for that he was ahead of you ask me

but also I forgot to mention he’s new but all his friends play there often and I can see why they would protect him for my part I think it is wrong to even do business or ask someone what they have and even if you do you as an adult shouldn’t respond another thing the reason

I really didn’t want to go back not just because I didn’t agree with there ruling is because they are whacked out of there mind it use to be fun when I started going there now the morons just took over the game and with this game it seems the floor is always getting involved fights are getting broken up daily I just sit there quiet and try to play poker also I shouldn’t have even give him the option

you're correct about that I wasn’t running good the past couple times and it just came off automatically. it’s funny actually I never would do business but playing there so much it kinda rubbed off on me every pot over $100 I expect business to be none not just in my pots but for everyone that’s how often they do it...

When you mean anything goes? Does that mean any ruling would be right I’m honestly just curious because I play I don’t run a card room out of my office ?

I won the first and he won the second correct and the saddest thing is that is the norm for this room a bunch of drunken people acting crazy so if I ever ask someone do they want to do business? That is an automatic contract basically that I have to do it when the player agrees? And second what if I wanted to run it more then twice how many times I can run it and What if we both don’t come to an agreement? What would be the default option? Once twice three times a hundred? The reason I’m asking is because I didn’t know what forum to ask this in and I’m still kinda in a grey area with the standard is with doing business? Thank you for your input!

Thanks for your input I’m glad to know it doesn’t effect anyone’s EV I didn’t know that before and it felt ridiculous to me because I stayed about a hour after and the room got really stupid (more then usual) and they started doing side bets and talking crap and the floor didn’t say anything the same dealer that didn’t control the pot with me and that dude also almost gave the winning pot (another pot) to the guy that actually lost to the real winner who had full house because he wasn’t paying attention the more i write and read your guys post I know it was just a dumb situation but I know more now that I don’t want to play there again ..

And I apologize for all the writing I’ll try to keep it short and sweet lol

I know this is an internet forum, so a high level of writing isn't expected or required. Even with that in mind, your posts are almost unreadable. Slow down, take a breath, split your thoughts into sentences, and general themes into paragraphs.

Your original post and subsequent answers read like a 7 year old on a sugar rush trying to describe what he did that day, all in a single breath. (I don't mean this to be insulting, just descriptive)

Antonio Esfandiari is known for doing business at the table. Personally, I recommend doing your business in the bathroom rather than at the table.

Yeah, I had never heard of the term before. Does it specifically mean "how often do we run this?" ??

I am struggling to see where the other player did anything wrong regarding protecting the contents of his hand.

In general, no that doesn’t mean you have to do it. What happened in your spot is certainly not standard and you wouldn’t expect that to happen in a regulated card room.

But there’s also just no reason to be “that guy”. If you want to run it twice, ask the guy “do you want to run it twice”. If you want to do it three times, ask that. Then he can make a counter offer and you have the chance to say yes or no.

If you ask him what he wants to do, that somewhat implies you offer him the choice. At least if it’s a reasonable one. So if you ask that question and he says once, twice or three times, you should be OK with that. Otherwise just don’t ask that way because it comes across as douchey.

And most importantly, don’t be that guy who wants to know his opponents hand and make a decision about RIT based on that. It’s considered bad etiquette and nobody likes players who do that.

It sounds like you yourself OP as using pretty shitty poker etiquette.

You asked how many times do you want to run it? This is a shitty question because you are gathering information. You should say "do you want to run it x amount of times?" I think that avoids most of the issue tbh.

This is one of the things I really wouldn't want to get into in live games tbh, I love the fact that online I tick a button saying I always run it twice and if the other guy has we do and if he doesn't we don't. Even asking people if they want to run it multiple times is a pretty lame attempt at getting a tell from some people.

Online I'd always run it twice (I'd run it 3 times always if possible), live I think I'd stick to always running it once I think it's more exciting for recs, speeds things up and avoids shitty scenarios.

for ****'s sake just show your hand then agree whatever. I guarantee that anyone who's getting A8 in against you there isn't going to use the information you give them by showing to their advantage.

people like you who insist on haggling for ten minutes prior to actually running the board out ruin live poker

as for the rules, house rules apply

End of the day the runout offered no one an edge either way no matter how many times it ultimately occurred. So let the noobie feel like he is getting special privilege. It’s good for the long term game.

I wouldn't want to play anywhere they let players do business at the table. Are the seats covered in plastic? Does the floor walk around spraying air freshener? Are players allowed to do big business or only small business? So many questions...