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Old 07-16-2017, 04:06 PM   #1
peddy.jr.85
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Reverse implied odds

Reverse implied odds is a new concept to me. I guess when thinking about it, a full understanding of implied odds is also a new concept.

I get that there are hands you can either win a little or lose a lot on. Is it situational?

I mean 22-66 maybe even 22-99/TT utg or utg+1 can have some severe reverse implied odds huh? Also in that range from EP would be like A2o-ATo maybe even AJo- A2s-AT/AJs, 23o/s-JTo/s right?

From later position though, some of those hands can offer great implied odds like 22-TT, A2s-A5s, ATs-AJs, 67s-9Ts.

Does that not make implied odds and reverse implied odds influenced by position like everything else in poker?

Am I not fully understanding this concept? Any help is appreciated.


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Old 07-16-2017, 04:37 PM   #2
Aces123123
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Re: Reverse implied odds

Think of reverse implird odds as a meassure of how likely you are to go broke if you hit your hand, and of implied odds as a meassure of how likely your opponent is to go broke if you hit your hand.

If you call a raise from an opener who has AA your implied odds with a pair of 6's is greater than if you call a raise from someone who has AT

Raising preflop with AA has worse reverse implied odds than raising with 72 off.
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Old 07-16-2017, 04:52 PM   #3
ArtyMcFly
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Re: Reverse implied odds

Quote:
Originally Posted by peddy.jr.85 View Post
I get that there are hands you can either win a little or lose a lot on. Is it situational?
Yes. As with just about everything in poker, implied odds and RIO are situational. Fundamentally, the EV of a particular hand is going to vary according to stacksizes and the ranges of your opponents. Position has a great impact on those ranges.
e.g. With 65s on the button in a heads up game, you're unlikely to make a flush, but it will nearly always be the best hand if you happen to hit it, and you're likely to get paid quite well by any top pair or better, because top pair is a good hand heads up, and any flush is a monster. In a 10-handed limp-fest, however, if 65s makes a flush it's much less likely to be the best hand, because there will be players with better flushes, or boats, so you run the risk of losing a huge pot.
Wherever possible, you want to have a dominating hand, not a dominated hand, and this applies to flush draws as well as pairs, especially multiway. (With regard to pocket pairs, bear in mind that AA has never been oversetted in the history of poker, because it's the best hand in holdem. 22 gets oversetted every day, because it dominates nothing).

Generally speaking, however, the hands that suffer most from reverse implied odds in ring games are (offsuit) hands that make top pair, medium kicker. (Or two pairs that aren't top two pairs). Hands like KJ, AJ, AT, QJ are the classic "trouble hands". Unless you make Broadway with them, you'll always be worried about your kicker or the strength of your two pairs. It can get very expensive when you have AT vs AQ on AQTxx, but you also have the fear of making two pairs and getting stacked by a straight.

Last edited by ArtyMcFly; 07-16-2017 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 07-16-2017, 05:04 PM   #4
peddy.jr.85
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Re: Reverse implied odds

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
Yes. As with just about everything in poker, implied odds and RIO are situational. Fundamentally, the EV of a particular hand is going to vary according to stacksizes and the ranges of your opponents. Position has a great impact on those ranges.
e.g. With 65s on the button in a heads up game, you're unlikely to make a flush, but it will nearly always be the best hand if you happen to hit it, and you're likely to get paid quite well by any top pair or better, because top pair is a good hand heads up, and any flush is a monster. In a 10-handed limp-fest, however, if 65s makes a flush it's much less likely to be the best hand, because there will be players with better flushes, or boats, so you run the risk of losing a huge pot.
Wherever possible, you want to have a dominating hand, not a dominated hand, and this applies to flush draws as well as pairs, especially multiway. (With regard to pocket pairs, bear in mind that AA has never been oversetted in the history of poker, because it's the best hand in holdem. 22 gets oversetted every day, because it dominates nothing).

Generally speaking, however, the hands that suffer most from reverse implied odds in ring games are (offsuit) hands that make top pair, medium kicker. (Or two pairs that aren't top two pairs). Hands like KJ, AJ, AT, QJ are the classic "trouble hands". Unless you make Broadway with them, you'll always be worried about your kicker or the strength of your two pairs. It can get very expensive when you have AT vs AQ on AQTxx, but you also have the fear of making two pairs and getting stacked by a straight.


Thanks. Best explanation I've gotten. So I've kind of being respecting it and not necessarily calling it by name. I know enough to know that AJo utg can mean broke fast.


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Old 07-17-2017, 01:51 AM   #5
Ray Zee
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Re: Reverse implied odds

there is a lot to it. just how you play your hand can affect your implied odds.
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:20 PM   #6
Gillingham
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Re: Reverse implied odds

so hands like KJ, AJ, AT, QJ have bad reverse implied odds by the looks of it

can you get hands with good reverse implied odds?

I think i understand implied odds better- 66 vs AA can have good implied odds
AA has bad implied odds or would you just call this reverse implied odds? or bad reverse implied odds?
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Old 07-20-2017, 03:20 PM   #7
Ray Zee
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Re: Reverse implied odds

yes 66 vs aa has good odds if deep. but what happens when a king or queen is out there and you hit your small set and he is moving in at you. how do you like it.
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Old 07-21-2017, 07:24 AM   #8
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Re: Reverse implied odds

To clarify further, reverse implied hands are those that can be ahead on the flop but are unlikely to improve further while the board offers a villain calling lots of ways to improve. A classic case is have black AA on a board that is JT9 all hearts. If you bet and get called, 21 cards in the deck could help your opponent on the turn if they aren't already ahead. And if you are behind, even the one card that unambiguously helps your hand might not be enough to give you a winning hand.
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Old 07-21-2017, 12:52 PM   #9
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Re: Reverse implied odds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillingham View Post
can you get hands with good reverse implied odds?
I think i understand implied odds better- 66 vs AA can have good implied odds
AA has bad implied odds or would you just call this reverse implied odds? or bad reverse implied odds?
You either have implied odds, or reverse implied odds.
It might help to think of it in the following terms:
Hands with good implied odds tend to be speculative hands. They either lose a small pot or win a big pot (e.g. When you go set-mining, but miss the flop, you check-fold and lose the minimum, but if you bink the set on the flop, you could win a big pot.)
Hands with reverse implied odds tend to win small pots, but lose big ones. e.g. With AJ, you c-bet on J63 and win a small pot when villain folds 55. If he flopped a set of 6s, however, then you could get stacked.
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Old 07-21-2017, 04:20 PM   #10
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Re: Reverse implied odds

cheers guys makes complete sense now, was getting a bit confused with the terminology more than anything I think
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