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Range of hands on the button Range of hands on the button

01-15-2019 , 04:52 PM
I'm trying to improve my play in position. I think I am too tight. I'd like to play more hands on the button. I've read that you can play almost any suited Ace or suited King, but is it when there are no limpers (and you raise, trying to steal the blind) or can you play them against a raiser?

If, let's say, MP1 raises 3BB (and the guy isn't a fish nor a shark), should I reraise, call or fold A5s, A8o, K5s, 76s, etc.?
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 03:42 AM
I'm not well studied on pre-flop, so take this for what it's worth.

When people talk about positional ranges they are usually referring to RFI, which is the range recommended to open for a raise with no limpers or callers.

For your example, A5s is a very good 3-bet bluff. A8o, K5s are too weak and almost always folds unless we have some special reads. A5s can be called against a villain who doesn't open too tight and defends 3-bets a lot, and if the blinds are not aggressive 3-bettors (this is common on live tables). 76s I can imagine doing any of the three options. It's a pretty marginal hand no matter what you do pre-flop. With passive blinds I flat. At a tougher table I mostly fold but mix in some 3-bets. With deep stacks I think flatting 76s becomes better than folding because board coverage becomes a bit more important and our position is a little more valuable.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 07:59 AM
Opening ranges are much wider than the ranges you can call or 3-bet with in the same position, due to something called the "gap concept". (You can google it).

On the button, I'd usually 3-bet A5s vs an MP open, and 76s can be a 3-bet, call, or a fold, depending on various factors including stack sizes, the opponent that opened, and who is in the blinds.

A5s, A8o, K5s, 76s are all standard opens on the BTN if no one has entered the pot. A8o and K5s are snap-folds if there was a raise.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
Opening ranges are much wider than the ranges you can call or 3-bet with in the same position, due to something called the "gap concept". (You can google it).

On the button, I'd usually 3-bet A5s vs an MP open, and 76s can be a 3-bet, call, or a fold, depending on various factors including stack sizes, the opponent that opened, and who is in the blinds.

A5s, A8o, K5s, 76s are all standard opens on the BTN if no one has entered the pot. A8o and K5s are snap-folds if there was a raise.
Other than the possibility of flopping a flush/straight is there reasons why you 3bet A5s otb but fold A8o? Thanks
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
Opening ranges are much wider than the ranges you can call or 3-bet with in the same position, due to something called the "gap concept". (You can google it).

On the button, I'd usually 3-bet A5s vs an MP open, and 76s can be a 3-bet, call, or a fold, depending on various factors including stack sizes, the opponent that opened, and who is in the blinds.

A5s, A8o, K5s, 76s are all standard opens on the BTN if no one has entered the pot. A8o and K5s are snap-folds if there was a raise.
So you'd 3bet a A5s? Isn't it a bit risky... I mean, if you get 4betted you are forced to fold. Isn't it a big risk?
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baal666
So you'd 3bet a A5s? Isn't it a bit risky... I mean, if you get 4betted you are forced to fold. Isn't it a big risk?
This is not the way to think about light 3bets or even 3betting generally. There's spots where you should be folding AK to a 4bet. That doesn't mean you should stop 3betting with AK. Possibility of a re-raise doesn't mean we shouldn't raise.
When we 3bet pre we have two ways of winning [opponent folds or we make the best hand]. When we flat we have only one way to win the hand.
Observant opponents will notice if you only 3bet premium hands and will be able to play perfectly against you pre. To counter this we can balance our range by mixing some bluffs into our 3bet range. A5s is a good hand to 3bet light due to the blocker and possibility of flopped draw or flush/straight. Even in terms of actual pre flop hand strength A5 probably isn't doing terribly against a lot of players MP opening range.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkytheFish
This is not the way to think about light 3bets or even 3betting generally. There's spots where you should be folding AK to a 4bet. That doesn't mean you should stop 3betting with AK. Possibility of a re-raise doesn't mean we shouldn't raise.
When we 3bet pre we have two ways of winning [opponent folds or we make the best hand]. When we flat we have only one way to win the hand.
Observant opponents will notice if you only 3bet premium hands and will be able to play perfectly against you pre. To counter this we can balance our range by mixing some bluffs into our 3bet range. A5s is a good hand to 3bet light due to the blocker and possibility of flopped draw or flush/straight. Even in terms of actual pre flop hand strength A5 probably isn't doing terribly against a lot of players MP opening range.
Thanks. But could you please explain what you mean about A5 been a good blocker? OK I understand that if you 3bet there is a possibility that the raiser will fold (and I would check his F to 3bet stats of course) but out of position wouldn't his raise show a good hand? And if he calls, and an ace comes on the flop, its a weak ace..

I understand the strategy, just trying to understand how it works. Trying to understand how its +EV. If I 3bet 18BB after someone raised 6BB, well I invested 18BB trying to win 9BB, so it seems to me that I'd need to be right 66.6% of the time just to break even if the original raiser fold. Of course I'Ve got equity with the hand as well, but both blinds are behind and may act as well...
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkytheFish
Other than the possibility of flopping a flush/straight is there reasons why you 3bet A5s otb but fold A8o? Thanks
You don’t have to flop a straight or flush, getting there by the river is plenty.

A5s is just a superior hand to A8o because of the added flush/straight potential that you can realize by being in position postflop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baal666
So you'd 3bet a A5s? Isn't it a bit risky... I mean, if you get 4betted you are forced to fold. Isn't it a big risk?
That’s true for every single hand that you don’t want to continue with after a 4bet. The only way to avoid having to fold to 4bets is to only 3bet hands you are willing to stack-off with. And as soon as your opponents know that you don’t have any light 3bets in your range, they can play pretty optimal against you.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 02:02 PM
Thanks... I think I understand... but what about the fact that you'd need to win 2/3 of times to make it work? It seems a lot.. i don't this the raiser would fold that often or that a hand like A5s would win that often... Any time a ace is on the flop, I'd be afraid kicker is bad..
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baal666
So you'd 3bet a A5s? Isn't it a bit risky... I mean, if you get 4betted you are forced to fold. Isn't it a big risk?
A5s is unlikely to be very profitable as a call, but should be slightly better than breakeven as a light 3-bet, which you can consider to be a "bluff" or "semi-bluff", because it folds out better hands (villain can't call a 3-bet OOP with hands like A8o or 22) and has some equity vs hands that call, like 99/88 or KQs.

The ace is also a blocker to AA/AK, which means you won't face a 4-bet particularly often.

You don't have to win every time when you 3-bet, as you still have the chance to make the best hand, or to continue with a +EV semi-bluff if you flop a draw. Bluffs don't have to work every time for them to be profitable. They just need to work often enough that bluffing makes more money than folding.

It's just as "risky" to 3-bet with JJ. In fact, with that latter hand, you're even more likely to face a 4-bet, since it doesn't block QQ+ or AK.
To some extent, I'd rather face a 4-bet when I have A5s than JJ, because I can easily fold the former (because it's clearly not the best hand), but probably have to call with the latter (because there's a chance it's ahead) even though I'll hate most flops.

When you 3-bet with A5s, you don't have to stack off on Axx. You play it for its showdown value if you just make top pair. Indeed, by playing a small pot, you can get value from hands like QQ-TT on Axx.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baal666
So you'd 3bet a A5s? Isn't it a bit risky... I mean, if you get 4betted you are forced to fold. Isn't it a big risk?
Yes bluffs require you to risk money. That's the whole essence of bluffing. Given your recent post history I actually wouldn't recommend implementing bluffing as 3bet yet, simply because when done wrong it costs a ****ton of money. Just fold speculative hands, it's not like bluffing wins you a ton of money on microstakes since people think folding is against their religion.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-16-2019 , 07:43 PM
Thanks guys. Still have trouble figuring what to do with hands like TT JJ as some people recommand folding against a raiser, others calling, and others 3betting. But I guess I'll get better with time!
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-17-2019 , 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baal666
So you'd 3bet a A5s? Isn't it a bit risky... I mean, if you get 4betted you are forced to fold. Isn't it a big risk?
This has probably been said, (I'm only to this point in the thread currently) but what you do with A5s when you get 4bet by the same villain depends on his stats, and the sizing, positions, etc. Sometimes you should fold, sometimes you should flat IP, sometimes you can profitably jam over. GTOish-wise it's always a 5bet jam, but that would be horrible vs a player who never 4bet bluffs in reality.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-17-2019 , 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldzMine
This has probably been said, (I'm only to this point in the thread currently) but what you do with A5s when you get 4bet by the same villain depends on his stats, and the sizing, positions, etc. Sometimes you should fold, sometimes you should flat IP, sometimes you can profitably jam over. GTOish-wise it's always a 5bet jam, but that would be horrible vs a player who never 4bet bluffs in reality.
5bet with A5s?!?! Isn't it strongly -EV?
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-17-2019 , 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldzMine
GTOish-wise it's always a 5bet jam, but that would be horrible vs a player who never 4bet bluffs in reality.
No disrespect or whatsoever, but are you drunk?
Can you please show me at-least 1 spot where any solver says 5bet jam with A5s?
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-17-2019 , 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelorcharlie
No disrespect or whatsoever, but are you drunk?
Can you please show me at-least 1 spot where any solver says 5bet jam with A5s?
Every solution includes A5s for balance depending on positions vs itself. Say BTN vs reg CO is going to be something like QQ-AA, AKs, A5s, for 5bet jams.

In reality, against people that don't 4bet bluff much you drop A5s though. But against, the best regs A5s, A4s should be in the mix.

Last edited by WorldzMine; 01-17-2019 at 08:03 PM.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-17-2019 , 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelorcharlie
No disrespect or whatsoever, but are you drunk?
Can you please show me at-least 1 spot where any solver says 5bet jam with A5s?
"GTOish-wise it's always a 5bet jam, but that would be horrible vs a player who never 4bet bluffs in reality."
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-17-2019 , 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldzMine
Every solution includes A5s for balance depending on positions vs itself. Say BTN vs reg CO is going to be something like QQ-AA, AKs, A5s, for 5bet jams.

In reality, against people that don't 4bet bluff much you drop A5s though. But against, the best regs A5s, A4s should be in the mix.
What exactly is a 5bet jam? Is it like a regular 5bet?
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-17-2019 , 08:46 PM
And how would you play a small pocket pair, let's say against a MP raise?
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-17-2019 , 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baal666
And how would you play a small pocket pair, let's say against a MP raise?
flat on button with a pair.

I only call small pairs on BB and Button. SB sometimes.
Anywhere else I just fold them.

But then again, that's me.
Mr.5bet GTO can tell you something diffirent, since his solvers are somehow drunk
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-18-2019 , 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baal666
And how would you play a small pocket pair, let's say against a MP raise?
3bet or fold like 77+ unless there's fish in the blinds.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-18-2019 , 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelorcharlie
But then again, that's me.
Mr.5bet GTO can tell you something diffirent, since his solvers are somehow drunk
Lol ok. What do you use for 5bet bluffs if you know that you need them in your range? Using A5s-A2s depending on the number that you need for balance is super-standard because they have decent equity when called even by the top of their range. http://en.donkr.com/Articles/Categor...%27em-6-Max-16 A bit outdated but you will get the idea.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-18-2019 , 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baal666
What exactly is a 5bet jam? Is it like a regular 5bet?
It's a shove over a 4bet ~100bb's deep. It's the only action that makes sense if you are going to raise there.
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-18-2019 , 02:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelorcharlie
No disrespect or whatsoever, but are you drunk?
Can you please show me at-least 1 spot where any solver says 5bet jam with A5s?
Are you absolutely kidding?
Range of hands on the button Quote
01-18-2019 , 04:37 AM
Quote:
No disrespect or whatsoever, but are you drunk?
Can you please show me at-least 1 spot where any solver says 5bet jam with A5s?
lol, don't listen to this guy.
Range of hands on the button Quote

      
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