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"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it "Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it

11-23-2020 , 07:10 PM
Long story short: I seem to get into trouble with a hand like Q3 or K5 in the blinds, too weak to raise, too good to fold from the blinds. I call, flop top pair, and get beaten by their kicker card. This isn't an isolated incident as it happens far too often for me. Should I raise? Fold? Fold to a raise post-flop?

I'm in SB with Q3, not a hand I'd ever really want to play, but it's half a blind so surely it makes sense(?). Middle position has already limped in, BB checks. Flop comes Q45 rainbow. I've flopped top pair but with a terrible kicker card (I'm not really anticipating getting a straight). If villain has a Queen he almost certainly has be beat. That said, what more could I realistically ask for? A pair of threes wouldn't be much, two pair is highly unlikely, I got my Queen paired and top pair. Villain raises, I feel I can't fold as I got my top pair, but I can't continue because if they have their Queen paired they'll beat me. They raise, I call as I'm nervously having faith in my QQ, they raise the turn, I call, they raise the river, I call (still with top pair), they beat me with KQ.

Another time, again MP limps in, I have K5o in the SB, I call, BB checks. Flop comes K5T all of diamonds. I raise and chase my two pair down to showdown, villain shows 73d for a flopped flush. In this case it seems a double-edged sword. If I'd have raised it would likely have shoved MP into a fold, but with that said K5o is not a hand I want to play let alone raise, so calling seemed reasonably. Good enough to call, not enough to raise.
https://ibb.co/0nNXcc0

Thanks for your advice!
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-23-2020 , 08:24 PM
Fold those hands preflop. As you have discovered, they are just hands that get you in trouble and rarely give you a hand that can win a big pot. If it is folded around to you and your opponent folds to raises a lot, you can consider occasionally raising - but calling just guarantees you will be playing a crappy hand out of position for the whole hand (assuming the BB doesn't raise).
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-23-2020 , 10:00 PM
K5o? Q3? Good god, just auto fold. It's not good enough to call and rarely, if ever, good enough to raise.
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-24-2020 , 01:14 AM
Online in SB just fold any hand you're not going to raise. Turbo fold junk like K5o/Q3o. Make your life easy, use whatever your raising range is from CO, not saying this is the best ever strat, but it is a quick guide. Tighten up against limpers, tighten more against multiple limpers.

Live you can get so many passive and terrible players that overlimping SB can be OK or even optimal. Like you can easily overlimp baby pockets and SCs and suited aces. Fold K5o / Q3o. Get 6 limpers ahead and a passive BB, over limp K6s or A7o or QTo or 64s, why not? Just don't get married to top pair. When you go 7 ways to a limped family pot you want a monster to commit stacks, not top pair.

BB is a whole different story.
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-24-2020 , 06:10 AM
Grunch.
First piece of advice, learn to fold from the SB even for .5 BB. Unless you have a starting hand, this is the position players lose the most money in. So, playing K5, Q3 is just setting money on fire.

It doesn't get any better from the BB. Since everyone limped their hands most likely aren't strong, but they most likely aren't playing worse (K4, Q2 etc.). Even if you hit two pair on the flop, any overcard to your non face card could give them better two pair - Q8, let's say. You're just asking to lose more money.

Just learn to walk away from trash and focus on better card selection and position.
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-24-2020 , 09:24 AM
On that all diamond flop, think about what kinds of hands can bet for value considering that as the number of opponents increases so does the minimum value betting requirements increase. Then please reconsider your flop raise. Think about the hands that will go to war on that kind of flop ? And ask yourself id they're bad enough to bluff with this many opponents?

The only hands youre ahead of on the flop are hands like KQ with a diamond and you're flipping vs that hand. Thus I think you should not raise the flop.

As for completing the bet preflop? It has more to do with equity realization. The more passive they are the more hands you can and should play. The more aggressive they are (BB in particular can deny your equity preflop) the more you should fold preflop.
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-24-2020 , 09:56 AM
Just don't play with people you don't know, unless you have some kind of read
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-24-2020 , 10:14 AM
There are lots of poker charts floating around online and in books that you can search for to help you navigate all the positions around the poker table.

1) DON"T LIMP IN POKER! Either open, flat an open or raise if you aren't going to fold. If you insist on limping then you are now playing cards (bingo), not playing poker. Yes, this will probably lead you to playing A LOT less hands.

2) If you are going to limp (and you will continue to do so regardless of what you read here) then control the pot size .. don't unreasonably chase. Remember .. "Never go broke in a limped pot."

3) The charts will help you navigate certain spots. Those hands may be 'fine' to raise with as long as it has folded around to the blinds, but they are trash if there's been an open and a call.

4) Assuming you are playing lower stakes it can be pretty difficult to rely on your opponents to be poker savvy. So you have to take aggression at face value most of the time, especially a triple barrel.

5) i also assume that you mean your opponent 'bet', not raised in the Qx hand. Because if you bet and then got raised on Flop, Turn and River then you really need to slow down and consider that they really do have a better hand to show down. By not raising your opponent should feel comfortable that they have the best hand all the way to the River as described.

6) Let's crank it up .. What are you doing with A6s in the BB? Limping? Opening? Flatting an open? Or do you 3-bet fold if the open comes over the top? This is way better than Q3/K5o isn't it? Or is it?

You flat an open and the Flop comes A45r .. are you in a different spot? Not really. Are you just going to call, call, call your way to Showdown (and lose again a lot of the time)?

My point is that I you probably feel 'way' better about A6s than K5o, but once you commit to be in a hand you then have to move on and adapt to how things flow with the current Board and action. I'm not saying that you need to fold to 'every' triple barrel as your opponents will catch onto that and run you over. But I am saying that 'top pair no kicker' is the same whether you have Q3/K5 or A6s, so be aware of that. GL
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-24-2020 , 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by M1ndCtrl
K5o? Q3? Good god, just auto fold.
Absolutely. There are no good reasons to play OOP with junk. These hands you list..... are less than junk PRECISELY because see the shiny baubble (honor card) and don't see the truth;

Win a little, lose a lot.
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-24-2020 , 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WretchedLife
not a hand I'd ever really want to play, but it's half a blind
Well, until it isn't.

There are a lot of hands that would be worth calling the big blind with if action was stopped at that point. But unfortunately, there's up to 3 streets to play post flop which means several spots where extra money might go into the pot.

I agree with WereBeer. Online, just fold the junk and off to the next one. Live is a different situation but that doesn't change the fact that you have to approach very cautiously. Especially against people who barely (or never) raise preflop which means they have all kinds of strong hands in their range. Get out of the pot with your mediocre to good hands if you face resistance, win a huge pot when you flop the nuts and they can't let go of their AA.
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-24-2020 , 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
There are a lot of hands that would be worth calling the big blind with if action was stopped at that point. But unfortunately, there's up to 3 streets to play post flop which means several spots where extra money might go into the pot.
This is something that many beginners fail to realize. You just can't make a decision without thinking about how the entire hand might play out.
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-24-2020 , 11:46 AM
Thanks a lot for your advice everyone! Just for context I made these decisions under the idea of defending my blinds, but I'm guessing I've been doing it far too loosely. Thanks!
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-24-2020 , 12:14 PM
I think "defending blinds " is a misnomer because it leads to the idea that poker is some type of conflict that must be resolved through force.

Instead we should think in terms od profitability. Hands earn ev through exactly two ev sources. (Non showdown winnings) and (showdown winnings)

The former is basically a non factor in very multiway pots. The latter is really all that matters in very multiway pots. This ev source is quite sensitive to opponents tendencies. Imagine you're in small blind vs limpers and the big blind is a nutjob shoving 100%. You should fold every single hand which cannot call the all in shove. Because youre never going to get to see a flop for .5 big blind. Of course most opponents dont play like that. U gotta play the guessing game and if your read on bb is wrong u could be wasting lots of money in the long run by calling.

However vs very passive big blinds you can play more hands than you would without such information.

All decisions fall somewhere between these two extremes.

However I disagree with many that believe you should fold often there due to postflop stuff like "win a small pot or lose a big one "

Poker decisions are binary. (-ev) or (+ev). Just because bad players get stacked with bad hands doesn't mean such hands are negative ev in small blind vs limpers. Eliminate the negative ev plays(through study). I dont mean to suggest you will never make a losing call. I mean such a call should be profitable over the long run in order for it to be correct.

What this boils down to is this.

Your opponents are subjectively rational. They play in such a way that makes sense to them individually. So I gotta estimate what good strategy looks like , figure out what this particular opponent does differently. And figure out where there's ev to be gained.
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-25-2020 , 02:41 PM
This is Bob. Bob plays poker. Be like Bob. GL
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote
11-26-2020 , 04:48 AM
Hi Bob
"Completing" from the SB or BB with a lesser hand and getting into trouble chasing it Quote

      
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