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Old 02-22-2019, 05:33 AM   #1
Teski
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Question about SPR

Currently digesting this article; https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/7...pr-unl-849671/

There is this statement about 'Maximum SPR' I have questions about:

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with A A
5 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 2 folds, BB calls $1.00

Here is a good spot to estimate a maximum SPR. if BB was really tight that he will rarely stack off without 2 pair+, then you can say that you'll only get it all in profitably if the SPR was less than 4. That means that if the SPR was 4 or less you can commit versus this particular opponent and expect to profit.


Why would we ever want to stack off with an oP versus a range of 2p+. We have equity of ca. 20%, depending on the board. When stacking of on a board with SPR=4, we need 45%, no?

Now, we can assume that the author thought about added Fold Equity when shoving. With only 20% equity, we'll need a whopping Fold Equity of 69% (!!).

What am I missing here?
I'll try to answer my own question:

It's not that we should insta-shove 400%pot with an oP, so I see that SPR will be more of a 'guideline to make a plan' than a determining factor, but I don't immediately see how we should use it as a guideline. Assume that we are pot-committed with an oP when SPR=4, now what?
- bet/shove otF? (I still don't see pot odds of 4:1 as a possibility, to make a shove w/ 20% equity profitable )
- ...?
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Old 02-22-2019, 12:10 PM   #2
madlex
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Re: Question about SPR

So you’re saying that villains is only stacking off 2 pair+ and that 69% folds would be an unrealistically high number.

Does that mean you think villain flops 2 pair+ more than 31% of the time? If he doesn’t, your shove for 4x pot would be +EV, assuming that your estimate of 20% equity and calculations are correct.
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Old 02-22-2019, 02:23 PM   #3
Teski
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Re: Question about SPR

Still, I'm quite confused about the statement of us being 'committed'. Let's agree that 69% FE isn't that 'whopping' IF we are the ones that shove. If it's villain who shoves 4x pot, hell no I'm calling with 20% equity. How can we be committed here?
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:32 AM   #4
LordPallidan12
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Re: Question about SPR

You have to consider where spr points are derived from. He says not to stack off with spr of >4, why four, why not 2, 5, 20 etc?
As far as logic, it's not "I see flop with op and 4 spr = instajam" it's, I see flop with 4 spr and op, I'm not going anywhere. so no matter what lines he takes , check raise, donk jamming Into me, calling me for two streets, floating then stabbing etc. I'm getting it in, and I know that on the flop.
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Old 02-24-2019, 08:47 AM   #5
madlex
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Re: Question about SPR

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordPallidan12 View Post
As far as logic, it's not "I see flop with op and 4 spr = instajam" it's, I see flop with 4 spr and op, I'm not going anywhere. so no matter what lines he takes , check raise, donk jamming Into me, calling me for two streets, floating then stabbing etc. I'm getting it in, and I know that on the flop.
No. If somebody donk jams into you with a range of 2 pair+ and an SPR of 4, you snapfold. Thatís what OP asked for in his last post and I donít think the author implied that we should call off in that case.
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Old 02-24-2019, 10:45 AM   #6
Teski
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Re: Question about SPR

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
I donít think the author implied that we should call off in that case.
I think my confusion came from me misunderstanding what being 'committed' actually means.

How would you define 'being pot committed'?
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Old 02-24-2019, 11:52 AM   #7
LordPallidan12
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Re: Question about SPR

Committed means your committed, it doesn't matter what action happens - it's going in. Whether or not the guy donk jams into you, at a certain spr you're calling it off/getting it in no matter what.

If you have ako and someone calls your fourbet and you totally whif the flop and have an spr of 3, you're getting it in. You'd be wrong not to. A simple equity calculation will show you that, once you increase AMT of $ In pot (low spr) you really arent folding much if at all

Last edited by LordPallidan12; 02-24-2019 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:07 PM   #8
browni3141
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Re: Question about SPR

I would skip SPR. You'll only want to unlearn it later.

Focus on learning to range your opponents and thinking about how your hand fits into and should be played along with the rest of your range.

There is no magic commitment number for any hand pre-plop/on the flop because your relative hand strength can be drastically different depending on runout. If you have AA BB vs. UTG and 3-bet, get a flop of QJT, AA is close to the bottom of your range and you definitely don't want to GII with an SPR of 4 without improving. However your might want to GII with AA in a single-raised pot when the board runs out K7262, as there are very few hands that beat AA, even if the SPR is 13, which is apparently a "bad" SPR for overpairs.

Last edited by browni3141; 02-24-2019 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:04 PM   #9
ArtyMcFly
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Re: Question about SPR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teski View Post
How would you define 'being pot committed'?
To some extent, pot commitment doesn't really exist, except when you have the right price to call with ATC. The FOLD button doesn't magically disappear once the pot is a certain size. Folding is still an option if you're sure you're behind and don't have enough equity to continue.
There are some extreme situations, however, where a shove is so small in relation to the pot that you're priced in to call with your entire range, due to having enough equity vs villain's range.
e.g. If you made the mistake of 5-betting 72 to 90bb, leaving 10bb behind, you have to call if villain jams and waves AA in front of your face, because you're getting the right price (10bb into a final pot of 200bb).
Similarly, if the SPR on the flop is exactly 1, then if villain jams with a pot-sized bet, you should call with anything that has 33.33% equity vs his jamming range, but fold anything with <33.33%. On some boards, AK or a gutter+overcard will have enough equity vs villain's pot-jamming range, but on others you might need TPTK or better.

When the SPR gets to 2 or 3 or more, there are some/many hands that won't have enough equity to stack off, so you should fold on the flop before you're priced in on a later street. This is why it's often a mistake to put more than a third of your stack in on any particular street unless you're "committing" to stacking off, as you'll usually be priced in to call off the rest no matter what happens next.

FWIW, I don't pay much attention to the exact SPR, and don't use it with that very general idea of "Stack off XX if the SPR is Y". Each situation (and board) is slightly different.
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:20 PM   #10
madlex
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Re: Question about SPR

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordPallidan12 View Post
If you have ako and someone calls your fourbet and you totally whif the flop and have an spr of 3, you're getting it in. You'd be wrong not to. A simple equity calculation will show you that, once you increase AMT of $ In pot (low spr) you really arent folding much if at all
Again, thatís not true. Guy moves all in for 3x pot and turns over AA. Youíre calling off with AKo? I donít think so.
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:10 PM   #11
LordPallidan12
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Re: Question about SPR

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
Again, thatís not true. Guy moves all in for 3x pot and turns over AA. Youíre calling off with AKo? I donít think so.
at what SPR do you feel you truly are committed with an OP, 2 OC ? do you acknowledge that such a point exists, if so, we should be able to establish where it is based upon our equity vs pot odds. Im contending that point is a higher SPR than you may think
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:22 PM   #12
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Re: Question about SPR

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordPallidan12 View Post
at what SPR do you feel you truly are committed with an OP, 2 OC ? do you acknowledge that such a point exists, if so, we should be able to establish where it is based upon our equity vs pot odds. Im contending that point is a higher SPR than you may think


Short stacked in a tourney =/<1 SPR.
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