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Old 03-25-2019, 12:49 AM   #1
BHD108
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Question about pre-flop ranges

I'm new to this, and just starting to learn strategy from different sites. Looking at a pre-flop range chart from a professional site, it lists what hands to raise first-in with relative to your position. And for the UTG position (and I think the next two positions) the chart says you should not raise with a K 9 suited, but you should with a J 9 suited, and a 10 9 suited.

Why is this? Isn't it better to have the K, you still have a straight draw with that hand.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:57 AM   #2
Spacerat65
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Re: Question about pre-flop ranges

i think it has to do with them hands have more combos of straights 78T 8TQ 678 JQK etc. where K9 has TJQ. there's probably more combos but im sure it has something to do with that.

Last edited by Spacerat65; 03-25-2019 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:20 AM   #3
sixfour
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Re: Question about pre-flop ranges

It's to do with how they play postflop. Connectors play a lot nicer as you hit flops which you want to continue on more often, and if you don't they're real easy to jettison, with something like K9 you can get into real trouble if you hit the king and don't know what you're doing postflop
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:50 PM   #4
LoveUknow
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Re: Question about pre-flop ranges

K9s can be opened from UTG.
Snowie opens K9s from UTG.
I wouldn´t open neither K9s nor J9s from UTG.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:05 PM   #5
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: Question about pre-flop ranges

It has to do with implied odds and reverse implied odds.

Implied odds take into account the money you can win after you hit your hand in later rounds of betting. Hands like J9s have good implied odds, as it is very possible to hit a monster hand that is well disguised. You can flop a straight and flush draw and get action from TPTK. You can even flop the nuts and sometimes get your stack in against TPTK or an over pair.

Reverse Implied Odds are the other side of the coin. This is the money you will lose when you make your hand, but someone makes a better hand. Say, for example, you call a standard open raise with K9o. The flop comes up K52r. The opener continues for a pot sized bet, you go ahead and raise him with top pair. He reraises you, and you call. He tables AK versus your K9. All the money you lost after you made your second best hand contributes to the reverse implied odds.

You can't just look at the objective strength of the hand, but how it will play post flop. J9 is easy to throw away when it misses (or even when a J hit but the villain keeps attacking). It plays significantly better postflop than K9, which can get you into a lot trouble.
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:37 PM   #6
ArtyMcFly
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Re: Question about pre-flop ranges

K9s, J9s, and T9s are roughly equal in strength or EV (about breakeven UTG), but J9s/T9s help balance your range and give you better board coverage.
i.e. You don't need K9s in your range if it already contains multiple better Kx combos (to give you top pair on Kxx). K9 is also unnecessary for making straights on QJT, as you have 16 combos of AK that do that.
J9s means you can make straights on T87 boards, and T9s can flop the nuts on 876, and these are the kind of boards that aren't so great for the rest of your range.

Don't obsess over it too much. K9s, J9s and T9s (and even hands like A5s, ATo, KJo) all only have an EV of about 0.01bb UTG with optimal play vs rational opponents. If you lack post-flip skills, you'll lose with all of them in the long run, and you'll do better just sticking with a tighter/stronger range that is more obviously profitable.
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Old 03-25-2019, 05:13 PM   #7
MMSS
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Re: Question about pre-flop ranges

Not to mention rake makes them all -EV anyway in the games you most likely play.
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Old 03-26-2019, 07:56 PM   #8
BHD108
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Re: Question about pre-flop ranges

Thanks. I get it now. I can recall the feeling of a hand getting me into trouble. Like I've played K + low card before and after hitting a K on the flop and thinking this was a good hand I would lose to a higher kicker.
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