I play mtt sngs and mtt. I mostly play push/fold in these.


Let say a player with 10bb goes all in with 4 players left. According to push fold, he should be pushing,


22+, a2s+,a9+, k8s+,kjo+,q9s+,qjo, j8s+ j10o 108s+ 98s etc.


Let say you are in the BB. I read in a thread that if that player shoves all in with 10bb, and let say you have A10o. That is call. You need at least A10o to be +EV. A9 would not be a call. First off, is A10o a call in this spot when that player is shoving 10bb?


What if you are next to act after him though? Is A10o still a call? Becaues in that situation, well theres still 3 players left to act behind you. What if you are the button or sb? I would assume the closer you are to the BB, A10o is a call.


But if you look at this chart, does that mean if that same player shoves in that position, that KQo is a call? And what about the position? Because i can't imagine if you need KQo to call off in the BB... well its the exact KQo when acting right behind him. Then again if you dont call with KQo with 3 players left to act, well you aren't playing push/fold correctly?


This also has me confused but it has Q9s + and QJo. Does that mean Q10s is a call? I can't imagine that would be a call.


Also even though it shows shoving range as QJo... does that mean thats only if other player is playing accrding to nash and perfectly which almost no one does? So basically someone who shoves 10BB in that position, could it mean QJo could possibly be a call or A5 is a call because that player shoves way too loose? But if someone shoves even tighter than the push fold, even KQo is a fold?


Another thing i wanted to know is what pairs do you call? Because in the push/fold chart, it shows 33 or 22 plus for pushing range with around 10bb depending on position. So if someone shoves all in with 4 players to act... is 55 a call? I seen players who would reshove all in with 55 or even hands like A5 and isolate all in. Note this is in mttsng where lot of regs as oppose to mtt.

First I'm going to say that I am a much better cash game player than a tournament player. Hopefully I can help a little bit anyway

This is a pretty complicated problem and in real time I just estimate a players shoving range and estimate my equity against that, and tighten my range depending on the number of players left to act, ICM factors and my edge. Most hands are easy decisions, thankfully. If ICM is a factor than you should be folding hands which are marginally +EV calls. If you have an edge you can fold marginally +EV calls and wait for a better spot.

If you know what someone's range is it's easy to calculate what your "optimal" calling range should be closing the action.

For example, given the range {22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A9o+,KJo+,QJo,JT o}, your +EV calling range closing the action from the BB would be {33+,A3s+,KTs+,QJs,A8o+,KJo+}. Your advice from the other thread was wrong. Because of pot odds due to being the BB you only need 43.9% equity to call a 10BB shove. With antes you can call even wider. QTs is a fold against this range, but just barely.

When you are not closing the action it becomes more complicated and I don't have the tools to analyze this spot easily. It seems like common sense to me that if ATo is a marginal call from the BB, it is probably a bad call from the SB. I don't know exactly how much players left to act should cause us to tighten our ranges. I can tell you I used Equilab for the above range.

thanks for that info. Yes everything here i mention would be with antes. So ATo is a marginal call in the bb even though a9o is what someone would be shoving 10bb from? And yes what confuses me is would a10 be a call if you were next to act after the shover or of course in between such as button or SB etc. I mean i would assume the player next to act ... need AJ to call minimum... then once sb and bb... its A10? Thats what i want to know b/c i want to play push/fold correctly.


I mean i understand the push part since that is pretty easy. Look at how much bb you have and its a push or fold according to the chart. But what about the calling part and in what position. I mean i seen an utg shove for 8bb... and many regs calling the all in for 6bb more with any pair it seems or face cards. Is that about right? Then again i would want to know accurately and would like it if someone can explain this.

The further away you are from closing the action, the tighter your calling range should be. It's impossible to provide you with the precise calling ranges for each position, but using an ICM solver (e.g. SnGWiz, ICMizer or Holdem Resources) and inputting the stacksizes you can see which ranges work best.

Intuitively you should realise that when someone opens UTG, you can't call very wide in UTG+1, because there are still a ton of other players still to act, and they could wake up with much better hands. When you're closing the action in the BB, however, you can call widest of all, because you're guaranteed to be heads up, and you're also getting a better price because you've already paid 1bb.

You also need to remember that the BB amounts listed on the Nash table are only true if the other player is also using the Nash table. It's also only true for HU play, so if anything's multiway, those hand strengths go out the window.

Almost nobody, even online, pushes as wide as the table suggests, so you need to tighten up your calling range compared to what the table suggests. Shoving according to the table is great if your opponents fold too much, but you need to be a little wary of too many shoves in a row lest they call down with a ~60% range, and you can only shove with full strength while your stacks are relatively equal (or higher on your end).

I checked icmizer. Im very confused with this. It showing for payout structure such as 50/30/20 for sng but i mainly play 180 mans and some low stakes to a few mid stake mtt.


Yes the further from closing the action, tighter closing range should be. That makes sense. But for the push/fold charts, in that situation when a player shoves 10bb with 5 players left and i have A10 in the BB, thats a call because their shove range with the Ace is a9. But what if you are SB instead? I mean is it now AJ? Is it bad to treat one player left to act in the BB as not that big of a deal? The thing is i seen players who would shove 10bb with 5 players to act then i would see the next player reshove all in with 66 etc. I would notice they do this with kq and kj etc. Yes i know nas table is true if other player is playing nash table.


What program/chat can i use to see what should be my pushing/calling and reshoving range then if i play 180 mans and small stakes mtt? I mean if a reg shoves 10bb with 7 players to go... what is the calling range in the BB. I notice lot of regs would call it off with 55 and even Kq etc. that seems to be a bit loose. Is A10 or AJ even a call? Because the shoving range for that would be A10 in that position so you need AJ or better. I seen players call much looser in the BB there where its looser than the push/fold chart.


The other thing is i like to know how many BB can you shove when short stack in different positions? Example you can push in first position with 10bb with

33+, a8s, a5s, ajo+ k9s, kqo+, qts+ j10s + 109s


When they use 10bb obviously its for 10bb. But what if you have 12bb? What about 15bb? I mean isn't shoving 55 first to act with 15bb pretty reckless? 12bb seem to be more okay but is that still loose? Then you look at other hands like J10s and 109s. Are these profitable to shove first to act with 12bb? 15bb? I seen players shove these hands up to 20bb when in middle or late position. Obviously when they shove 20bb with few players to act, its not a monster but something like a pair to something like qjs or j10s etc.


Basically i want to have a chart or program where i know okay shoving 15bb with 5 players to act is right with minimum XX. Also when i look at the push/fold chart with 10bb to 8bb and under for SB... obviously its very loose. But for 10bb... how many bb do you use the chart for? LIke it has 53s and 107offsuit as a shove from the SB with 10bb. But is it still good for 12bb? 15bb? Or would for 12bb its now 108offsuit etc. Or what about 20bb? Because with small pairs it seem like open jamming is best since if you get reshoved on, then if you call which usually you do... u are usually flipping.

Hey guys. What is best push/fold chart out there?


So far i use pushfoldcharts.com.


But i also found out there is a push chart with floattheturn.com. There is also an app called snapshove where you can only test it out to 12bb. But full version goes all the way up to 20 or 25bb etc. However when i input information like 12bb and say im in the lojack, shouldn't the charts be all the same whether pushfold, floattheturn or snapshove? Because they are not.

"All models are wrong, but some are useful".

The difference in charts is that the true equilibrium strategy surely includes mixed strategies(ie jam 10 8 off at stack size X 23.4% of the time, Fold 76.6%) but the person doing the calculation has to make rounding assumptions at some point to make this model useful.

This is the downside of using a "black box" model like this. You can do some really foolish things if you don't know how to adjust for the assumptions made by the model because you don't know what the assumptions even are.

I use pushfoldcharts as a reference when making push or folds. The issue with it though is it only goes up to 10bb and it goes like 6bb, 8bb, 10bb etc. The other issue is it doesn't tell you what to call an all in with at all etc.


The other push fold charts i heard of is


floattheturn
push fold excel spreadsheet
snapshove



I have only looked at pushfold, floattheturn and snapshove. The issue is all of these seem to not have the exact ranges by position. For example, with 10bb on pushfoldcharts, it says you need a9o+ to shove in lojack position. According to floattheturn, you need a7+. a5 etc. To me thats a big difference even though someone mentions it isn't that big.


And the other issue with pushfoldcharts is say 86s is a shove on the button with 10bb. However, it doesn't show you if you can shove that with say 15bb etc. Floattheturn does show this though but im not sure which chart is the best chart.


I tried snapshove app free version where you can go up to 12bb. As the other charts... they are bit different compared to floattheturn and pushfoldcharts. However i heard that this app is recommended by lot of poker pros and also believe in the review its the correct chart. Has anyone used this can give me their opinion? I want to follow one chart only and not look at so many different charts. The other thing is... is it true this chart would tell you what to call an all in with and what hands to call 2 reshoves with? Or it does not do that? For example, does it tell you if utg +1 shoves 12bb... and you are say in lojack position with around that stack size where that is effective stack, that you can call with so and so hands such as it would tell you 88+, aqo+, ajs + etc? Because that is what i would like as i want to memorize and have a good idea of the hand ranges i should be shoving etc. Because the issue is im not sure with say 12bb to 15bb... if a hand that is a shove with 10bb is a shove with 12bb... is a shove at 15bb. I assume 10bb and 12bb is not that big difference... but 15bb would be.


Anyone can give me their opinion on this?

A reply in the September thread you started on the same type of subject.

Seems on point to me.

Hey all. Can anyone else who use snapshove could tell me if thats the program i should get? Also is there a free trial version where i could test it out for a bit before i buy it?


Because i use pushfoldcharts to look at push/folds. But the issues are... it only goes up to 10bb. And the other thing is it doesn't tell you what to call all ins with etc.


But apparently snapshove does? So for example if someone shoves 15bb in first position and say im in the cutoff... it would tell me exactly what i would need to call minimum? Because that is what i want to know. Thus i want to play by the chart. Also does it show you what to call with if there is say an all in from say lojack and the cutoff calls the all in for say 10bb each... then you are in the button and what to call with? Or does snapshove not do that?


I also notice floattheturn now shows you what hands to call shoves with. And it goes up all the way to 20bb. The thing that has me confused is does anyone know what percentage ante does pushfoldcharts use? Because for example in the lojack position with 10bb... it says to shove a9o+. But if you look at snapshove, it says a10+ and floattheturn... it shows a7o+. Yes i know that isn't a big difference but the thing is i want to know which is the most accurate chart. Thus i want to know okay with 10bb in the lojack position and say with 12.5 or 10 percent antes... is a9o a shove? Because it is according to pushfold but not according to snapshove. And people seem to say snapshove is endorsed by the pros.


On floattheturn, you could change the antes to 10 or 12.5 percent which is the most common ante. On the snapshove app, the free version only lets you test it with 12.5 percent ante and nothing else. So can someone tell me if the chart for push fold and calling all in on snapshove is exactly the same as floattheturn if say we both are looking at 10 percent ante... or say 12.5 percent ante?


Thus if snapshove is the recommended app of all of these, then i will just get it and disregard pushfoldcharts and floattheturn etc. Thanks all.

I bought snapshove on my phone. However, im wondering are these ranges more accurate than pushfold or floattheturn? For example here is an obvious one. UTG with 10bb. According to pushfoldcharts and floattheturn, a5s is a shove with 10bb. However it isn't a shove with 10bb according to snapshove. Can someone tell me why this is the case? a5s with 10bb seems to be a standard shove.

Okay so another example i want to use.


When lojack shoves 10bb... is his shoving range a7o or a9o? The thing that surprises me is according to snapshove and floattheturn... if lojack shoves in the lojack with 10bb... and you are in the bb, you can call off with a7o. First off, is that correct or not? Because i thought you needed a10o? I know that your hand strength to call is weaker the closer you are in the bb. But im surprised at this if its true.


The other thing is when utg shoves 10bb. And its folded to you in the BB. It says you can call with k10s and qjs according to floattheturn. On snapshove, it says KJs+ thought. So which of these are correct? Also is really KJs a call in the BB with utg shoving 10bb? If so, im surpised at this because i thought you needed a much stronger hand to call etc. But based on all these examples, can someone suggest if its best to use snapshove or floattheturn? I bought snapshove because i planned to use it but got disappointed when i saw how a5s is not a snapshove utg with 10bb. Can someone tell me if this is incorrect?

It's not going to matter much, DUCY?

Because it only matters if villain has 77/88 or a8 right? Thus very small percentage?

But for the calling all in in the BB, are those ranges really correct? Thus utg shoves 10bb and you are in bb and kjs is a call?

So with these apps and charts, snapshove, floattheturn and pushfoldcharts, which would you rank in terms of 1, 2 and 3? I like pushfoldcharts because its easy to look at. But problem is they dont tell you what to call shoves with etc. Snapshove... why is a5s for 10bb not a shove utg?

Hey all. So can someone tell me what is the nash shoving range with 10bb and UTG? With the old push fold charts it is


33+, a8s+, a5s, ajo+, k9s+, kqo, q10s+, jts, 109s


on the snapshove app where you make it 10 percent ante, they have


44+, a8s+, ato+, k9s+, kqo, q9s+, j10s, 109s



Which one of these is correct one? The thing is i thought with 10bb, AJo is a shove. But snapshove says A10o is good enough. And why is A5s with 10bb not a jam? Now if you make the ante 12.5%, then the shove range looks a bit like pushfoldcharts. Does anyone know what ante percentage pushfoldcharts use?

I tried to understand this for long and test a lot of stuff. The only thing I can say now (maybe I am wrong) is: charts are only a "guide" you have to have in mind but what realy matters is what's villains pushing range, just call tighter than it. You saw him or know he could push A2o, then call A6o+. K9o, call KJo+, etc

Another thing I do not know but do is thinking about my stack. I would call like this with a bigstack or with short stack but maybe not with middle stack depending on villain.

Okay heres a few other questions. So i have snapshove on my phone that i bought.


So when someone shoves for 12bb in the cutoff position and im in the BB. I have QJo. Lets just say 12bb is the effective stack size and thus its basically all in. Snapshove shows QJo is a call to a 12bb shove from the CO when you are in the BB. Can someone confirm here that is a call? My thoughts are thats not a call since you are calling off your 12bb stack with QJo in the bb to a 12bb shove. However when you look at the push fold for that player, J10 is a shove in that position. So that is why QJo is a call then right?


Also a few examples that surprises me according to snapshove when im playing around with it. A player in the lojack shoves 10bb. You are in the BB. According to snapshove, you call with


22+
a2s, a7+
k9s, kjo+
q10s
jts


Can someone here confirm this is correct to call with these hands? I understand that when you are in the lojack with 10bb... you shove with k8s, q9s, 98s. But are all these hands really calls?


I was shocked a2s is a call. But k9s, q10s and j10s has me very surprised. Isn't that a very loose call? Now does it matter if both players have same stacks vs if you are a big stack? If you have a big stack, i can understand calling a 10bb shove from the lojack position with the hands shown. But say they are shoving 12bb and you have 12bb or less. You are basically calling it off with k9s, q10s and j10s? That seems way too loose to me.

Snapshove has computed it correctly. It's just maths. Against the shoving range that it puts villain on, QJ will win often enough (given the pot odds) that it will at least break even against someone shoving the range that Snapshove has given to the CO.
But here's the rub: A lot of people won't be jamming as wide as Snapshove says they should, so QJ might not break even vs the general population. In soft games, I'd call a fair bit tighter than Snapshove says.

Under/over 2 months before Paul bumps the thread again to ask the same question for a 94th time?

Which did you buy your phone or snapshove? Im confused and curious.

riiiiiiight.

Do...

1. Pick a set of charts that you trust and go with them as you learn the game.
2. Study the ass out of ICM
3. Understand that these are only building blocks and that you have to make adjustments, esp when fish are involved, and play a little poker. Even in tourneys.
4. Do something about your postflop play. Early in tourneys and HU to win, post flop play is important (play/learn a little cash maybe...just a little)

Don't...

Expect to find the perfect set of charts, they don't exist.
Ask the same question over and over in BQ

GL

I agree players don't jam as wide as snapshove. However, what about calling the shoves though?


When someone shoves utg with 10bb and everyone folds to you, it shows
you can call with

55+
a8s+
a10o+
kjs+, kqo


Is that really accurate? That seems to be a bit loose in terms of calling with a8s and a10o and Kjs. Because that player would open jam AJo minimum if they follow push fold charts. Thus you need aq or better. But since you are bb and there is no action left, well that makes sense you can call lighter. But a10o seems to be a bit too loose?


Also i put down lojack jams 10bb.


If you are in the BB and folded to you, it shows you can call with

22+
a2s+, a7o+
k9s+, kjo+
qts+
j10s+


That seems WAY too loose. A2s, a7o, K9s? The player if they play according to nash would be shoving a2s, a8+ and k8s+ in that position. So thats why k9s is a call in the BB?


Also could someone tell me in the lojack position with 10bb... what ace is the minimum to shove with? Pushfoldcharts shows a9o+. Snapshove shows a8offsuit.


Also is 87s in the lojack with 10bb a shove? According to snapshove it is... but its 98s according to pushfoldcharts. I want to know the exact push/fold range for 10bb. Thus when it fold to me in lojack and i have say a7 or a8offsuit, im not sure if its a shove or not because i always followed pushfoldchart and jam a9o+. But snapshove shows a8o. Then in lojack with 87s with 10bb i always folded because i know minimum is 98s. But thats not the case with snapshove...


Can someone answer these last few questions of mine? Frustrating when im not sure which chart to follow when shoving.

Yep



It's the under by a landslide!