I created a thread a while back here and it got locked. I believe it was because questions were all over the place so i want to make it more simple.



I mostly play mttsng and low and mid stakes mtt. Previously i saw a site called pushfoldcharts.com where it shows you the push/fold for stacks up to 10bb. I thought it was pretty simple and nice and you could memorize the chart easier because you can print it out and memorize it. However, i then found out there were other push fold charts such as snapshove and floattheturn. The difference between these 2 apps and pushfoldcharts is not only can you do the push/fold chart up to 20bb... but it tells what what you can call with in each position to a shove. Example utg shoves 15bb. You are in the lojack and it would say call with so and so.



1. But back with the push fold charts for a second, i noticed the push/fold charts on push/fold is different compared to snapshove and floattheturn. Does anyone know if pushfoldcharts uses a 10 percent or 12.5 percent ante? Example with 10bb in the lojack, you need a9o+ to shove and 98s+. But on both snapshove and floattheturn, its a8o or a7o/a5o depending on if its 10 percent ante or 12.5%. And you could shove with 87s in lojack with 10bb. Can anyone here confirm that snapshove/floattheturn is correct and not pushfoldcharts?


Also is those jennifear chart where it shows push/fold up to 20bb. I remembered these charts from years ago back then. Now what i noticed is they have it for no ante, 10 percent ante, 12.5 percent ante and 20 percent ante. So 10 and 12.5 percent ante is what is mostly looked at. I noticed the shove range in her chart is much looser. Like you could jam 22 utg with 12bb. On pushfoldcharts, utg with 10bb, it says 33++. But on snapshove and floattheturn, its 44+ or 33+ depending on the ante. I recalled there was a statement where you could jam 20bb in any position with any pair and it was profitable. That obviously is wrong right? I remember someone posted that a very long time ago.



2. So based on this, which pushfold chart is the best to use and study? Is it probably in this order?


snapshove
floattheturn
jennifear
pushfoldcharts.com



Also do you guys remember 2 separate charts like okay this for 10 percent ante and this is 12.5 percent ante? That would seem insane as there would be a few hands added to the 12.5 percent ante but i cant imagine anyone has like the shoving range of 12bb utg+1 with BOTH 10 percent ante and 15% ante memorized in the head right? So if you choose one, do you choose 10% or 15%? I took a look at the structures online on stars, party, 888 etc and some tournaments have 10% ante, others 12.5%


What is frustrated is pushfoldchart is what i remember but now it seem its a bit wrong. Like in the hijack position with 10bb, i thought it was a4+ but the other apps have a5+. Yes i know it seems not that big deal but when you have these hands when playing, im not sure which to do. Also when you are on button with 10bb... is it k8o you need like on pushfold or k6o like on snapshove? Because i would fold k6o many times with 10bb on the button.



3. Pushfold and jennifear charts shows shoving for 10bb and up to 20bb. It does not tell you what you can call all ins with which is the negative thing. Snapshove and floattheturn does everything up to 20bb. The issue i have both of these apps is you have to play with the app on the phone. Like okay with 15bb and lojack, this is the shoving range. So you have to play around with it a lot. I want to be able to have it printed out like in a flash card so i can memorize the chart. For example if you ask me what is the shoving range according to push/fold chart of 10bb in lojack, i could tell you without looking


22+
a2s+
a9o+
k8s+
kjo+
q9s+
j8s+
j10o+
t8s+
98s+



But snapshove and floatheturn has 87s included and a8o or a7o/a5o depending on 10 or 12.5 percent ante.

4. On snapshove and floattheturn, i played around with the calling all in. This has me very surprised.


When utg+2 jams 10bb all in, it shows that you could call with a8o+ and a3s+? Can people here confirm this is correct? This shows the same range for snapshove and floattheturn. I thought... that has to be way too loose. Because someone jamming in that spot, is jamming tighter than that assumign its someone who plays nash. But i know most ppl dont play nash. Because if someone jams with say a10o+ in a certain position, i thought you needed ajo+ or a10s+ to call? I know the more players left to act, the tighter your calling range has to be. The less players to act, you can call looser. But are those ranges correct?



5. Same question on the calling ranges. However let say this is the in the later part of the tournament such as 2 or 3 tables left or even final table. So if lojack jams 10bb and you are in the bb,


On snapshove, it shows a call range of


33+
a4s+, a9o+
kts+, kjo+
qjs+


I believe none of these programs like snapshove and floattheturn consider icm or anything like that. However let say in the example the lojack jams 10bb and you are in BB with K10s or QJs in the BB. Is this really a call based on the snapshove app? I can understand its a call if its early/mid stages of a tournament. But if its say 12 players left or 8 players left, this is still a call when lets just say it puts you all in? Like its correct to call an all in with 10bb... lets just say both of you guys had 10bb stack... or say he has 10bb stack and you have 12bb or 15bb stack. Since well that is what is jamming with. This is a call with K10s or QJs in the BB? I know the reason you call is because K10s and QJs gives you the correct equity to call... but this is basically for your tournament. Can someone chime in on this? Also this would be much different if it was say in a final table right? And if so how many players? Like 3-5 players? But if its more than that, just ignore it?


I ask this because many times when im deep in a tournament, and i have hands like this, normally i call when its early/mid tournaments. But when its late like last 2 tables, im not sure if its correct call due to well its deeper in the tournament.


6. Is there any program out there that you guys recommend for me to learn this? Basically i want to learn charts/ranges where when i have x cards when playing, i know exactly if its a shove or fold or call etc. Because many times, i would say... okay i know this would be a call according to snapshove... but am i really calling 10bb off which is my whole stack with k10s? I know players play differently but i would like to have charts and situations memorized in my head like how those pushfoldcharts are.


I get frustrated when i play because there are so many situations where i play where im not sure if its a shove or fold b/c well pushfoldcharts says its a fold but snapshove says its a shove. Like when you have k6o in the button with 10bb. I use to always fold k6o in button with 10bb because i always followed pushfoldcharts. But now sometimes i would jam it... other times i fold it... because im not sure which chart to follow. Thus i want to follow one chart. But i think it should be snapshove or floattheturn because they have calling ranges. Does anyone know if there is a way to print out snapshove or floattheturn out like print it out so i could memorize the push/fold for up to 20bb for each position? And also print out the calling ranges somehow where i could study it and memorize it like a flash card etc? Because its very hard to memorize the shoving and calling ranges using snapshove or floattheturn app on the phone because you have to move the position each time or move the bb stack to the next bb number etc. Thus i want to able to say if i asked myself, okay 15bb shove from utg+2. Im in cutoff. What is my calling range and i know it from memory. Does anyone have tips on this? I think the only way is to print out the chart like pushfoldcharts but i don't believe you can do this on snapshove and floattheturn?

It got locked because you keep doing the same thing as in your previous 2200 posts across all forums - you ask the same question over and over again (as you've done in this thread), and are incapable of either doing your own research or reading the answers you've been given. One chart includes an extra hand that's on the borderline of shoving or folding, one doesn't - they're on the borderline of shoving or folding so it really doesn't matter if you shove or not. None of them are significantly wrong. Pick one. Learn it. Come back when you have.

It's like déjà vu all over again.

How many times are you gonna ask the same questions and then ignore the answers? Just pick a chart (or app) and stick with it.

What you HAVE to understand is:

* NASH equilibrium - understand what it is and why.

* NASH push/fold charts are creating an equilibrium.

* FORCING (SHOVING) is different than REACTING (CALLING).

* If the FORCING player deviates from the NASH equilibrium, the REACTING player should also deviate.


The reason your app suggests calling A8o, or A3s, is because the app ASSUMES that villains is shoving a NASH range, which if you care to look, contains many worse hands than A8o, A3s etc.

Well can someone tell me which of these charts is the best? I don't want to just pick one if one is better than the other. But the thing is pushfoldcharts and jennifear does not have calling all in ranges which is what i dislike about it. So because of that, then theres snapshove or floattheturn. But the issue is these are apps and its like you can print it out and memorize it like a flashcard. Does anyone know if there is a way to do this on snapshove or floattheturn? Like have it printed out like pushfoldcharts.com, that way i could memorize it like a flashcard?


You say well one app has a few hand thats on the borderline of shove or fold. Well i want to know the exact ranges perfectly. Thus i want to know if a7o and a5o in the lojack is a jam or not with 10bb when one chart says it is, but the other requires a8o. Thus its a7, a6, a5 that im not sure if its a jam or not. Also i mentioned about the antes. There is chart for 10 percent ante and 12.5 percent ante. Which of these would you suggest to memorize? It would be extremely hard to memorize both of them. Such as okay in lojack position, 12bb... shove range is so and so with 10 percent antes... but with 12.5 percent antes, you have to add in a few other hands.




With the player jamming utg +2 10bb, it say call with a8 or a3s+ in the BB.


The shoving range is a3s+ and a9o in utg +2 with 10bb. So why is it a call with a8o then? I would thought you need a10o+ since you need to be one better than the shove?

This game of poker will frustrate you as long as you play.

In a game of imperfect information it is impossible to be perfect, so far.

Paul, not sure why someone needs to spell this out for you as it is so fundamentally obvious...but here goes.

Simply find the edges of each chart you would like to use. Memorize those hands. If it is solidly in one chart and not the other....THAT would be one of the edge hands.

And THERE....is your line in the sand. Above: raise. Below: fold. The Edge hands (there aren't that many!!!).....I guess you just need to use common sense and evaluate those specific opponent's ranges to make those hands profitable. You know, as in..... oh, I'm playing poker instead of robotically pushing buttons.

[edit]Additionally, those few hands....if you simply folded every one of them..... will not impact your winrate beyond a VERY small fraction. Why the heck are you sweating this?!????

Well because i wanted to have the perfect chart thats why. For example, many times i would get certain hands where i dont know if its shove or fold because pushfold has it as fold but snapshove as it as a shove.


I would like to go with snapshove or floattheturn because these apps does show what you can call all in with. But does anyone know a way to like print it out similar to like pushfoldcharts though like on paper or on some index cards where i could study it that way? Because that is how i memorized the push/fold charts from pushfoldcharts.com because i printed it out and memorized it. With snapshove, you need to input different situations over and over again.

You may not be able to understand this....but there is no perfect chart.

GL

But those charts i listed, would say in preferable order it would be


snapshove, floattheturn, jennifear, then pushfoldcharts?



And is there a way to print charts out with snapshove or floattheturn so i could study the shove and calls with different bb stacks like similar to how it looks on pushfoldcharts.com?

There is no perfect chart. If the big blind is a massive nit who is folding too much that will change what you should shove compared to a capable player who will call correctly.

Snapshove is the cat's ass. If for no other reason than you listed it first. There you go.

If you don't like that use jennifear. I've known a couple of Jen's in my days. They are good people. And cute too. What more reasons do you need?

Poker isn't solved in the sense that every perfect play for every situation is known and all you have to do is memorize charts and implement them exactly to win every time. You're playing other people, who are fallible and playing different strategies as well. Sure you have a baseline understanding of what you would do in general in certain situations, but the game is so dynamic that you often have to be able to adapt and deviate.

All of the charts you listed are fine, what matters is your ability to implement them and adjust dynamically to the specific game you are playing and the players you are playing with.

The right advice has already been said, pick the one you like best for whatever reason that is, learn it, and play using it. Adjust dynamically based on your opponents, and you'll get a feel for whether you like shoving K6o on the button with 10bbs or if you don't.

It's unfortunate that poker isn't as black and white as you want it to be, but it's not. Like others have said, if you are having this hard of a time figuring out which push/fold chart to use, you are going to really have problems as you study more intermediate concepts.

It's just not that easy buddy, and there are no shortcuts unfortunately. Good luck man.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

Well snapshove is what i read was correct push/fold so that is why i bought the app. However, the shoves and particularly the calls seems way too loose.

Example UTG jams 12bb with 12.5 percent ante. I am going to use 12.5 percent ante as that seems to be the standard ante size now... i had though t was 10 percent previously.


But when UTG jams 12bb... the BB can call with

66+
a9s+
ato+
kjs+
kqo


Does anyone think that is way too loose? So we if you are in the BB and have the same stack as the utg shover with 12bb... this is really a call with A10o? Even KJs seems a bit too loose. I can't imagine you having that much of an edge calling with either these 2 hands unless the utg shover with 12bb is a very loose shover. Thoughts on this?


Also on snapshove with 10bb and 12.5 percent ante... they have a10o as a profitable shove UTG with 10bb. Is the math correct on this? I always thought it was AJo minimum. Floattheturn has AJo with 10bb utg.

This is getting tiresome. A couple of people have requested that this thread be closed, because you keep asking the same questions.

Snap-shove is "correct" in the sense that the ranges it recommends shoving and calling will at least break even against another player using the same "optimal" ranges. In reality, most players fold more often to shoves (so you can shove wider than Snapshove says), and most players shove a bit tighter than Snapshove says, so you should tighten your calling ranges.

/ locking thread.