Posted this in the mtt small stakes forum but figure it should be here since well its on the rules of these tournaments.


I know with these, you are suppose to play a lot looser because of the bounties. Example in a bounty builder say 11 dollar tournament with 2.50 bounties, if that player has 2.50... that means you add the starting stack which is 5000 chips to the pot when calling all in right? You also factor that when considering implied odds right?


Now here is where i'm a bit confused. If you are getting 2 to 1 or more odds due to the bounty... is it pretty much almost any 2 cards all? Well if its 3 to 1 odds or better, its pretty much any 2 cards calling an all in assuming no more action?



Now this is where it gets confusing. Let say a player shoves and you are getting great odds. But this also means its for your entire stack... let say its 15bb or less to make it simple. Like are you calling all in from the BB with say Q10s if that player jams in lojack due to their bounty?


Also is there an easier way to calculate the bounty and pot odds? Example if someone has a 20 dollar bounty on them and each bounty is worth 2.50, well thats 8 x whatever starting stack is which is 5000 so 40000 chips more. But when the number gets a lot bigger, any quick math tricks to calculate it faster?


The other thing is this. How does it work when its heads up? Let say other player has 100 dollar in bounty to make it simple. So bounty is 2.50. So its 40x. So 40 x 5000 starting stack so 200000 more chips. But i know you also get your bounty back right? Or is it 1/2? So let say your bounty that is showing shows 130 dollars. So you factor the other players 100 dollar bounty so 40x the 2.50 bounty... but how much are you suppose to add also to your own bounty? Or you not suppose to? Like when they jam all in... okay 100 dollar bounty so thats 200000 more chips. But you factor yourself chips right and how you do that?

Alright so i looked at some articles and bit confused on the math here. Let say its a bounty tournament 11 dollar buyin with 2.50 bounties. Starting stack of 5000 chips.


So let say blinds are 15/30 with a 3 chip ante to make it simple and 5k starting stack. It folds to sb who jams 167bb all in to make it simple. So here in the BB, if no bounty is involved and it is regular tournament, well you need to call 4970 to win like over 5k in chips so you need big amount of equity to call.


But if this is bounty tournament... do you first look at the players stack size or their bounty amount first? Because i thought you look at the bounty amount... so say its 2.50. I thought it was okay now its over 5k chips to win... but because that player jam all stack and we cover them... that 5k chips is worth 2.50... so its now 4970 to win over 10k chips so you need a bit over 33 percent equity to call? However, i read an article where it says its like 4970 chips to win over 15000 so its like over 3 to 1. However that article did mention when stars bounty tournaments didn't the amount you get but half the amount. But whether its that or not... how is the calculation done here? I always thought it was look at how much their bounty is... let say its 5 dollars when the bounty is 2.50. Then you just add in starting stack which is 5000... times 2.... so another 10000 in chips when factoring pot odds. So this is incorrect?


Are you suppose to look at the players stack size first as oppose to their bounty amount before calling an all in? In the article i was looking at it seemed to talk more so about the stack size as oppose to the bounty amount. Like it would say okay blinds are 15000/30000 and player in sb jams 300000 or 10bb. But here the bounty means very little. They mean because when you factor even the biggest bounty the player has... it wouldn't add much to the decision right?


This gets very confusing the most when it gets to heads up because you get your full bounty back. But how do you calculate this?

I'm not even an mtt expert, much less a bounty one, but I have a few things to point out here.

1) Yes, as far as I know you do the bounty to $ conversions like that. With that said, there are still other factors at play in in mtts (for example, ICM) which might mean you'll still find some folds despite calling much wider than normal vs players allin with high bounties. If a player jams for your entire stack, he'll generally have you covered and so you're not playing for the bounty at that point. If you have him covered by one chip, that actually will substantially change the way things work I believe.

2) HU there is no bounty. Maximize your cev at every decision point. You either lose and get nothing or win and get the entire remaining prize pool -- there are no other outcomes. HU bounty is an illusion.

Hi thanks for the response. Can someone confirm to me if the way i calculate the bounties into money is the correct way here?


Well in HU, i know that 1st place is like almost double 2nd place. So like when you are to call an all in for example whether preflop on on the flop, you do add the amount of chips he has when you convert the bounty amount to chips. But do you have to add your own bounty into it as well? Like they have 100 dollar bounty... starting chip is 5k. Bounty is 2.50. So its 40x. So its 5k x 40 = 200000 more chips. But let say you had a bounty of 130 dollars. So do you need to add the 5k x 52 = 260000 more chips into the equation when calling the all in?


Well i thought hu bounty didnt matter but then ppl say you get your own bounty.

this part is wrong, and therefore all the rest is 2,5$ is roughly 22% of buyin, and therefore it is worth 22% of 5k chips, which is 1100 - that is what you should add to the pot when considering a call that can eliminate a player. All further calculations should follow the same pattern.

with regard to your example, when player shoves 5k into your 30 blind (lets ignore antes for simplicity), you are calling 4970 to win 5000 (his stack) + 1100 (his bounty) + 45 (blinds and antes) = 6145. 4970/(4970+6145) = 0,447, so you need rougly 44,7% equity to call.

e: also, re HU, as Dunc said, you always play for chip EV only when HU

Can someone confirm here that is how you calculate the chips in play for a 11 dollar bounty builder with 2.50 bounty and 5000 starting chip stack? I always thought for every 2.50 bounty a player has... you are suppose to add 5000 chips to it... thus the starting stack? But you are suppose to add only 22 percent of the 5k starting chips so you add only 1100 chips per 2.50 bounty? So if someone has a 5 dollar bounty, you add 2200 chips into it as oppose to 10000?

This is what I get for skimming the post. Yes, this is absolutely correct.

If 5000 chips is 1 bi and you win 1/4 of a bi when you bust someone, how could 1 bounty be worth $5000 chips?


In hu there are only 2 outcomes. You win all the money possible or you win $0. There are no bounty or laddering considerations. There is no nonsense with bounty calculation. HU in any tournament is just a husng with $X prizepool to the winner and $0 to the loser.

Well the reason i thought 1 bounty is worth 5000 chips is because well if you bust the other player, well you get the 2.50 bounty and thus that equates to starting stack.


So its only 1100 chips? That does not seem correct here. When i read the article on upswing, the author mentions how you add the entire starting stack into the equation... well its either that or half the starting stack.


Can anyone here chime in on this?

Bounty is proportional to stack (1/4 stack for normal bounty tournies and 1/2 for heads up), there are other ways to solve this, but that is the simplest and gives one a large enough advantage beyond doing the work necessary to get it perfect.

Yes there are situations where you are deep where it is TECHNICALLY any two, but just because something is +ev doesn't mean it's the most +ev long term, i.e covering others and playing good solid poker v others. Generally getting beyond 30+ bigs starts putting you in that range where you do have to make folds despite it being "any two."

could you link the article? You probably misunderstood what the author meant or it was worder awkwardly, since Upswing usually puts out solid content even for free, and this is clearly wrong.

It is (almost) half of starting stack in non-progressive super KOs (for example, 5+5+1$ BI, where it's 45%), so maybe you confused the format to which the article was relating.

I presume OP is talking about the ChuckBass article: https://upswingpoker.com/knockout-bo...rogressive-ko/

I guess this is the quote OP is talking about:

there is an extensive discussion below the article about that fragment. Tbh Im not sure what to think of that, I kinda understand where is he coming from, but this is contrary to something I thought was obvious and straightforward for years.

I guess what Mika is saying is that when you eliminate the player, you are winning his entire share in the bounty prizepool, which was worth 5$. This take under consideration "future ev" of that bounty, plus the fact that you will now have better chances of covering all in players (hence little OVER 50% of starting chips). Again, not sure what to think of that, but it's certainly a good point.

Yes that is the article im talking about. So where in the world are you guys getting that its 1/4 or even 1/3 the starting stack. If that is the case, then aren't bounties with the equivalent chips pointless almost always?


Like say deeper in a tournament, a player has a 20 dollar bounty... or 8 buyins. Well if the blinds are like 5000/10000... that player jams all in, you telling me that jam is only going to be worth 10000 chips total? If that is the case, the bounty dollar amount won't even matter later on. If you count bounties the way you guys describe it, it will almost have very little effect at when you consider the pot odds assuming you are deeper in the tournament. And even early on... its only 1250 chips more? That rarely would mean anything.

Someone in another thread mentioned its worth 1/3rd the stack. Thoughts on this


I then asked yhy are you dividing 2.75 and 5.50 and then adding it to 2.75?


So basically any bounty builder or bounty hunter or progressive where the bounty is half the buyin and you get half the bounty... always calculate it as 1/3rd starting stack? So if its a 11 bounty builder on stars with 2.50 bounty and 5000 starting stacks... every 2.50 is worth 1667 chips? So someone has 10 dollar bounty. Then instead of it being 5000 x 4 = 20000 chips, it would be about 1667 x 4 = 6700 chips?


What about a 11 dollar bounty hunter on partypoker then? The difference is instead of each bounty worth 2.50... its 2.75 because you dont pay rake on the bounty. So with 50k starting stacks... do you still count it as 16667 chips? The thing annoying about all this is 1/3rd the stack, its harder to calculate it. So you just round it to the nearest thousand to make it simple?


So on 888 to make it simple. A 7.50 bounty progressive tournament where you get 1.75 on each player you bust and 30k starting stacks... every 1.75 a player has... you add only 10000 chips to the pot?


The thing is all this is true, then why are the progressive tournaments so aggressive when a bounty is only worth 1/3 the starting stack? If thats the case, then arent you suppose to play it more like a freezeout? Lot of players and regs play very aggressive for bounties so how could it be only worth 1/3 starting stack? I always thought it was worth the entire starting stack of 5k on stars... if not it would be worth half of 2500.


So can anyone here confirm this?



Also how do you know how much a player wins in a bounty tournament by looking at the lobby? Example i will make it very simple. A bounty builder 11 dollar tournament with say 10k gtd to make it simple. When you see a player has 80 dollars in the bounties and get paid 22 dollars for finishing in x place. So that player profited 22-11 = 11 dollars. Then won another 80 dollars from the bounties so total profit of 91 dollars?


What is also confusing is what about heads up? Are you suppose to add the bounty of the other player when calling an all in for pot odds? Someone mentioned in heads up, you either win everything or lose. So you play it exactly like a heads up sng. Is that true or false? So if someone has a 200 dollar bounty.. and goes all in for 12bb... and what you have is a fold... you ignore converting the 200 dollar

In the progressive KOs, I think the "value" of the bounty, in terms of chips, is much higher at the start of the tourney, and that's when stack offs should be more common. You should therefore never register late, because the bounties early on are "worth more", and you don't want to late-reg with a short-stack as people will be priced in to call your shoves. Later on, an individual's bounty doesn't 'represent' such a large chunk of the pot, as there's also a normal prize pool (and ICM factors) to consider.

It's all very complicated, which makes the format so interesting, and also quite juicy, because most players have the wrong strategies. (They don't value bounties very highly at the start, when you're miles from the money, but overvalue them later, when winning the actual tourney is more important).

Well i understand the not register late for a bounty builder because if you do that and you are short stack, well you can't get any bounties.


But in terms of chips, how much are they worth compared to the starting stack? That is something that i still don't even have a clear answer. I get answers from 1/4 to 1/3 to 1/2 the starting stack. Such as you add them to the pot odds when calling a raise or all in for example. I do not think its 1/4 because if that is the case, then wouldn't it mean rarely should you go after bounties at all? Again, even if someone has 10 dollars in a bounty in a 11 dollar BB... that is nothing when the blinds are high etc. And even when the blinds are low... if its 1/4 the starting stack... thats very little and wouldn't it mean very little incentive for the bounty even early on? Again players are going after bounties with weak hands early on for a bounty that is the minimum like 2.50 in a bounty builder 11 for example. Now if each 2.50 is worth the starting stack of 5000 chips, that makes sense. If is worth half starting stack which is 2500 that make sense. But anything less than that... it doesn't make sense here. Because players are getting in very light when say someone has a 20 dollar bounty. So that made me thought it had to been the starting stack. But now im thinking 1/2 the starting stack.


Also could someone answer the previous questions i asked related to it. Like especially in heads up and like how can you tell someone what is the total amount someone has won in a progressive tournament by looking at the lobby?

Anyone here have an answer to this? I can't believe there isn't even a clear answer to how much starting chips is a bounty worth in a bounty progressive tournament. Like for every 2.50 in a 11 dollar bounty builder with 5k starting stacks... how much chips is it?

In a PKO, the "value" of the bounty is constantly changing, just as the ICM value of your stack is also changing. Early on, bounties are "significant", because you're miles away from locking up a slice of the prize pool. When you're on the FT bubble, however, bounties can be quite insignificant, because you're trying to win the whole thing, not just pick up one bounty. That's what makes the format so complex, and it's not always clear when someone is making a mistake. e.g. It can be very +EV for one player to play for stacks vs Villain #1, but - depending on stack size, ICM factors, and your own bounty value - it might be very minus EV for you to tangle with him.

Generally, bounties are still significant late in PKOs because the bounties are progressive. In non-progressive KOs the bounty becomes meaningless as you get deep, but that's because bounties aren't continuously growing as you get deeper in the tournament.

But the thrust of it is right. If you win $2.50 when you bust someone and the buyin is $10, then a bounty is worth (slightly more than) 1/4 stack. If you're standing to win $10 when you bust them, though, their bounty is then worth a starting stack. You then of course have to compare this with other factors (like ICM).


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Pauly it seems like you just don't get it. Take a structure with 10000 starting stack, a $10 buyin and half the pool going to bounty. This means early game you're risking $10 to win $12.50, meaning you need ~45% equity instead of 50% to stack. But let's say the other player has busted 2 other guys, making his bounty $10. Now you're risking $10 to win $15, and only need 40% to stack. A bit later maybe someone comes in with $20 on their head, and you're risking $10 to win $20 and need 33%. And if you can't see how lowering the equity threshold required like this incentivizes aggression, you should probably just stay out of bounty tournaments. You don't spew too much for the starting bounty, but at times you'll get situations where guys have good size bounties and you just need very little equity to go after them.

I understand what you mean with a bounty is worth slightly more than 1/4 the stack. So basically 1250 chips if starting stack is 5000 etc or vice versa. However, if that is the case, why are players especially regs and decent regs so aggressive for these bounties early on and a bit later on then? They are getting it all in with much weaker hands because someone's bounty might be 25 dollars. They are fighting very hard for it.


Because of that... that's why i thought the bounty can't be worth just 1/4 of the starting stack. Because the thing is as you go deeper in a tournament, let say someone with 50 dollar bounty. So now... that 50 dollar bounty is worth about 25000 chips. But say the blinds are 10000/20000... well adding that additionally 25000 chips isn't going to mean much at all. But that bounty is worth like 5 buyins for a 11 dollar bounty builder etc. Players and regs go crazy over like a 5 dollar bounty which would be worth only 2500 chips if starting stack is 5000 chips. Then unless all the regs are playing incorrectly... then how does the bounty even mean much if converted is only 1/4 the starting stack. There would be very little incentive for it in many situations if you only add 1250 chips for every 2.50.

The extra bit that bounties add just seems to impact things more than you realize. It's not like every strong mtt reg misunderstands the math and your beginner question is somehow revolutionary and correcting a massive mistake everyone has been making for years. Also, in tournaments you need to be considering the max $ev decision. You're not playing to make the most chips possible, you want to make the most dollars possible.

I think the best resource I've seen that made it click for me was from the Negreanu masterclass series. He has a module that goes over different tournament strategies, perhaps worth checking out:

https://pokermasterclass.uscreen.io/...ament-strategy

There are multiple better mtt resources available.

Anyone have good articles to read on this format especially on how to add the bounty equivalent? So that upswing article on how to calculate bounties to chips is incorrect then?

Also can someone explain to me how to see how much profit a player makes when looking at the tourney lobby?


Example say a player plays a 11 dollar BB to make it simple. It shows 23 dollars the amount shown for their place. Then it shows say 30 dollars in bounties next to it.


So that means this player made 30+23 = 53 - 11 dollar buyin = 42 dollar net profit?



Also does it mean when it gets to heads up, you are suppose to ignore the bounty amount and play it like a freezeout? Someone mentioned in a bounty tournament, you either win all the bounties or win nothing. So you should not be adding x amount of chips to the pot when the opponent jams 10bb like you would when NOT heads up? So you play it like a freezeout? Because i had no idea of this until someone mentioned this. I thought you always add chips to the pot when a player jams all in preflop etc?