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Old 08-19-2009, 09:10 AM   #576
jackwilcox
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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In your 25nl part 1 video you have QQ (13 mins into the vid) and three bet a min UTG raiser who calls. The flop is A67 and you check. I like your reasoning behind a check but was wondering what you'd do if the villain bet the flop and what you'd do on the turn if you decided to call? Also, if the player was a regular they may try and bluff you off the best hand by representing the Ace after putting you on KK/QQ/JJ/TT - if you had AK/AQ would you check an A67 flop? Would you cbet against a regular or play it similarly to how you played it against the passive fish?
1) people generally dont call 3bets out of position and then lead on Axx flops. if they wanted to make a play at it then they would do so by trying to check-raise.

2) typically, players arent going to be getting too tricky in 3bet pots. mostly they will be playing fit or fold. even though when i check back the flop my hand looks a lot like QQ, unless he wants to bluff by betting the turn and river (i would definitally call if he bet the turn after flop checked through), then he isnt going to be winning the pot. bluffing 2 streets in a 3bet pot is an expensive option, and most people just arent going to be doing it.

i would bet all my Ax hands on this flop, and id be planning to get the stacks in when i had top pair. i would also bet this flop when i had nothing, because i can represent a hand like AK/ AQ quite well and get him to fold.
while it sounds contradictory, basically he wont have a hand that can continue all the time, so a bluff should work a lot. if he does have a hand that can continue then i get value with top pair, and if he folds then it doesnt matter because i pick up the pot anyway.

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I think you've touched on it a little bit previously but if you have time could you discuss how to cope with tilt?
the only way to cope with tilt is by quitting the tables and taking a break.

in fact, what seperates most players as you move up is their ability to cope with tilt. if you tilt off 1 buy in every 10k hands, i think it works out to affect your winrate by 0.5bb/100. obviously if you tilt off 1 buyin every 5k hands, or every 2k hands, its going to affect your winrate by a lot more than that
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:50 AM   #577
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post

i would bet all my Ax hands on this flop, and id be planning to get the stacks in when i had top pair. i would also bet this flop when i had nothing, because i can represent a hand like AK/ AQ quite well and get him to fold.
while it sounds contradictory, basically he wont have a hand that can continue all the time, so a bluff should work a lot. if he does have a hand that can continue then i get value with top pair, and if he folds then it doesnt matter because i pick up the pot anyway.
So you bet all your Ax hands in this situation, but check behind with QQ. Since you have experience from mid-stakes games, at which level do you think opponents generally become good enough so that you need to check behind here with Ax hands from time to time in order to balance your range? Or is it even that big of a concern in reraised pots?
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:14 AM   #578
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by USS_steamship View Post
So you bet all your Ax hands in this situation, but check behind with QQ. Since you have experience from mid-stakes games, at which level do you think opponents generally become good enough so that you need to check behind here with Ax hands from time to time in order to balance your range? Or is it even that big of a concern in reraised pots?
i begin to balance not by betting less Ax hands, but by betting more QQ type hands.

reason being, if someone has TT for example, they arent going to necessarily believe me when i bet Axx flop in 3bet pot, so they will call 1 street thinking i either have nothing, or i have an ace. by betting QQ, my value betting range is therefore more balanced.

people arent going to really be check/raise bluffing flops in 3bet pots when u r 100bb deep because its a very expensive bluff and leaves them basically pot committed if they have any equity at all.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:08 PM   #579
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post
this hand happened earlier which was rather fun. i showed a hand previously of where you can overbet to gain more value from villains range when you are in a situation whereby the size of the bet does not influence whether he is calling - he either thinks his pair is good or he doesnt.

in this hand i go for an underbet. or a suck bet as some people call it. its designed when i think villain has a very marginal hand, one that he wouldnt want to call a big bet with, but one that he cant resist calling a small one with.

here is the example:

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BTN): $11.75
SB: $8.95
BB: $6.60
UTG: $8.90
MP: $12.55
CO: $12.75

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with 9 7
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.90) 4 9 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.80, SB raises to $1.60, Hero calls $0.80

this was an instant check min raise. it can mean a wide range of things. he could have a 9. of course if he has a 9 he is very likely beating me at this point. he could have a flush draw in which case i am beating him. or he could have complete air in which case i am still beating him. overall i am ahead more often that not so i peel one off to see what he does on the turn.

Turn: ($4.10) 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

he checks which is quite surprising since i would expect him to obv bet his flushes and also his air hands since the spade is a scare card. i dont really know him well enough to know whether he would check after making the flush for deception, but either way, i dont want to be check raised again so i check.

River: ($4.10) J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.60, SB calls $0.60

when he checks again, well i know he doesnt have a flush now. and i would have expected his air hands to bluff. so it looks like he has 9x. due to the scary nature of the board i doubt he calls a decent sized bet so i opt for a suck bet. if he spazzes out and raises or shoves or something ridiculous i am of course calling 100%

Spoiler:


he actually showed AQ. i have no idea why he called he is never going to be good. but when i make a tiny bet of 60c he just cant resist seeing what i have. i just added 3ptbb that i otherwise wouldnt have. if i could do something like this once every 300 hands i suddenly add 1ptbb/100 to my winrate, which is well worth taking. if u win at 5ptbb/100 u would be increasing your winrate by 20%...


i think if u were really active at that table and opening and cbetting a ton on the button, the villain was prob tryin to c/r hoping u'll fold since the board wasn't particularly wet
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:29 PM   #580
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

if you think he has a 9 why arent u betting at least half pot? I really dont think a lot of players are getting away from a 9 here for half pot at 10 NL.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:46 PM   #581
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

gl jack with this again looks like your really folowing thru
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:30 PM   #582
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by Heath View Post
i think if u were really active at that table and opening and cbetting a ton on the button, the villain was prob tryin to c/r hoping u'll fold since the board wasn't particularly wet
well this hand was from aaaaaages ago so cant remember it exactly.... but...

most people would be checking there in my position, so tbh it was more a point that you can make thin value bets and get paid by trash. a lot of players in this situation would be scared that werent going to get paid by worse

i could have bet a little bit more to get paid by a 9. here though you can see he called with A high which he wouldnt do for half pot. he might also not be inclined to bluff-raise me if i bet half pot whereas he can totally spaz out when i do something like this.
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:58 AM   #583
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Just watched your first video and in it you show a balanced 3bet range and a polarised 3bet range. Do you not think a balanced 3bet range is bet for the micro limits as it just seems your value towning yourself using the polarised one? Or am I just thinking weak tight here?
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Old 08-21-2009, 01:29 PM   #584
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by Blacktie View Post
Just watched your first video and in it you show a balanced 3bet range and a polarised 3bet range. Do you not think a balanced 3bet range is bet for the micro limits as it just seems your value towning yourself using the polarised one? Or am I just thinking weak tight here?
You dont need to worry about balancing your 3betting range below NL50 imo.
At least until you have some experience and are solidly beating the games.
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Old 08-21-2009, 02:11 PM   #585
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by Blacktie View Post
Just watched your first video and in it you show a balanced 3bet range and a polarised 3bet range. Do you not think a balanced 3bet range is bet for the micro limits as it just seems your value towning yourself using the polarised one? Or am I just thinking weak tight here?
at micros we should probably be sticking to a value heavy 3-bet range both in and out of position as our default simply because so many players will call too often OOP/IP. it can still be fairly wide, but against players that are calling too often we want to be 3-betting hands that play well postflop in 3-bet pots, not 83o.
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:46 AM   #586
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by Blacktie View Post
Just watched your first video and in it you show a balanced 3bet range and a polarised 3bet range. Do you not think a balanced 3bet range is bet for the micro limits as it just seems your value towning yourself using the polarised one? Or am I just thinking weak tight here?
you will be more likely value-towning yourself with a hand in the 'balanced' 3betting range, since it means you will be 3betting hands such as TT/ 99. if you flop an overpair with those - say on a 247r flop - its going to be incredibly hard to get away.

on the same flop, if you have a hand like 45s - which would be part of a polarized 3betting range - then you are going to have a much easier time folding, should you get played back at.

i would say that you should adjust your 3betting range depending on villain - if your villain in a weak-tight nitty reg, who folds to 3bets ~85%, then you want your 3betting range to have a lot more bluffs in than value hands. if anything, you should be more inclined to slowplay big pairs vs these players by just calling their pre flop raise instead of 3betting.

if your villain is a loose fish with 30% fold to 3bet, then you want your 3betting range to include a lot more value hands such as AJ/ 99/ KQ etc.

i would hope the reasons why are pretty intuitive.
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Old 08-22-2009, 09:59 AM   #587
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Yeah I understand what you mean. Thanks for replying to my post I've always wondered how the polarised 3betting ranges work. I'll try to incorporate this thinking into my game and change my 3betting range depending on villian so.
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:23 PM   #588
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

hey jack, when u talk of some1 who's weak tight that u could 3bet lighter, I just wonder how would his stats look like?
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:48 AM   #589
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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hey jack, when u talk of some1 who's weak tight that u could 3bet lighter, I just wonder how would his stats look like?
initially, someone who folds to 3bets too much - 80%+

also, you want to watch how people play in 3bet pots, they might be the sort who never 4bet, but call 3bets wide, then just check/ fold when they dpnt make top pair/ overpair, in which case you are going to be picking up the pot a lot with a cbet.

stats dont really tell the whole story tbh, you need to watch players and take notes.
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Old 08-23-2009, 08:29 AM   #590
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

im nl50 player and wanted to ask one question about floating,when i see reg cbeting dry boards i sometimes float his cbet with intension of raising turn (i usually do this when he opens from middle/late position).
I do it because majority of players use baluga theorem and fold even decent holdings in such spots (they put you on 2pair/set) ofcourse more often they have weak hands and just cant continue. Is that standard or i leveled myself and spew money considering the amount of cash i need to commit to run this bluff.
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Old 08-23-2009, 02:32 PM   #591
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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im nl50 player and wanted to ask one question about floating,when i see reg cbeting dry boards i sometimes float his cbet with intension of raising turn (i usually do this when he opens from middle/late position).
I do it because majority of players use baluga theorem and fold even decent holdings in such spots (they put you on 2pair/set) ofcourse more often they have weak hands and just cant continue. Is that standard or i leveled myself and spew money considering the amount of cash i need to commit to run this bluff.
is a high risk, high reward situation really. you need to obviously work out whether your opponent is the sort of player who can lay down top pair/ overpairs.

its something that wont work as well as you move up further purely because people stack off lighter in a lot of spots since you dont represent very many hands.

at nl50 though it should fairly well so long as you dont do it all the time, and so long as you figure out whether your opponent knows what the baluga theory is
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Old 08-25-2009, 02:50 PM   #592
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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why the **** are u teaching these ppl how to play better? wtf is wrong with you????? the games arent tough enough as it is or what
Aww man your soo amateur.

Y u not see other players in here not taking advice and let'n noobs suck it all in?

Spoiler:
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:23 PM   #593
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

^^^^^

i honestly do not see your motivation for posting here. if you want to offer anything positive then please go ahead. no ones stopping you. but i literally cannot see what you or anyone else gains from posting negative things on a free public forum.



for those interested in the thread, i am going to be updating after the weekend, i have been on a bit of a break from poker as i have to resit exams for university.
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Old 08-26-2009, 04:56 PM   #594
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Impressed with your thought processes Jack, well done. I play NL50 and below is where I think I get into trouble most.

Do you ever fold AK preflop against a single opponent (even if they move in over the top of you)?

Is it ever right to donk bet?

What's your thoughts on AQs or AQo behind a raiser both IP and OOP?

What's your thoughts on defending your BB after all folds and the SB raises?
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:34 AM   #595
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

i dont know what your stats look like/ how you play, so i can only give advice regarding how i play at these respective levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkins_steve View Post
Do you ever fold AK preflop against a single opponent (even if they move in over the top of you)?

if you 3bet suitably wide, then by the time someone wants to play back at you by 4betting, AK will completely crush their range and is therefore a mandatory shove. the only time i would consider folding is early in the session to someone who i already knew as a complete nit. but thats pretty rare.

regarding 4bets... once u 4bet, u 100% have to call, even if you know their range is QQ+ and AK only. pot odds dictate that. obviously if u have a stat saying they 3bet 2% over 1000 hands, then you may want to re-think the decision to 4bet in the 1st place..


Is it ever right to donk bet?

leading into the pre flop raiser is something that isnt as common as it should be imo. if you watch the games you play in, a lot of players react really badly to donk bets and auto-bluff raise over the top. obviously look out for these players and adjust to them by leading rather than check-raising since they will likely play a lot worse vs the donk bet.

vs someone who doesnt auto-bluff raise, you can try leading into them on boards where they are likely to use lots of pot control. boards that look very check-raiseable such as 68T, are ones that your opponent *should* be checking back a lot of the time with a hand such as 67/ 87/ 98 etc, however its unlikely he will want to fold to a single donk bet from you with any of those. its also a board that people *shouldnt* be slowplaying due the draw heavy nature. therefore, when called, its unlikely your opponent has a hand of substantial strength, so you should plan to barrel a lot of turn and rivers with whatever you decide to lead into him with on the flop.


What's your thoughts on AQs or AQo behind a raiser both IP and OOP?

depends completely on their opening ranges in both spots. do some work on pokerstove vs different opening ranges to see how AQ fairs in terms of equity vs them.

as a generalisation, the suits dont make too much off a difference. if im on the button, i would flat AQ vs an EP opener, and 3bet vs a cutoff opener with the intention of shoving over a 4bet the majority of the time for value.

in the blinds, i would either fold or flat vs an EP opener (if you do some range work on pokerstove you should see why, after taking into account the reduction in equity from positional disadvantage). vs a LP opener, i would generally 3bet, again with the intention of shoving over a 4bet for value, the vast majority of the time.


What's your thoughts on defending your BB after all folds and the SB raises?

most people open the SB far far too wide, by using their button opening range. of course, due to the positional disadvantage when called, this is a massive leak. so therefore, i give no respect at all to people who open from the SB and will either flat their raise with the intention of bluff-raising a bunch of flops, or 3bet their SB open with total air
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:55 AM   #596
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

What do you think of this hand and how should have I played it with the knowledge I had at the time? Before this hand I had been at the table for two rounds and the button had been at the table for five hands. I'd never played against him before, but when he came he bought in for 8.80, posted the blinds oop and won that hand when he just minbet the flop and the big blind folded. In the very next hand he was in middle position and called UTG's (who had a full stack) raise, the flop came 447 two spades and he minraised UTG's cbet, the turn came a K that didn't complete any flush draws, and he shoved all-in 2x the size of the pot when UTG checked and UTG folded.

So I just called here with TT after the UTG raised and BTN called. I didn't know anything about the UTG player either and he had played only two hands before this so that's why I just called. When the flop came all small cards I decided to try a checkraise. I think the UTG can be cbetting here with whatever he has and the BTN could be calling with a flush draw or if he hit any pair on the flop. In hindsight, I think my raise was too small on the flop and depending on how loose the BTN plays he might call with just two overcards here. So the turn was an overcard I wasn't happy about it and I checked and he checked behind. Then the river is another six and also completes a flush draw. At this point I don't see any point in betting so I check again and the opponent went all-in.

But I think I set myself to play this hand badly with that small of a check-raise on the flop. Had I raised more I could have just shoved all-in regardless of what the turn card is when I already have enough $ in the pot.



Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $14.30
BTN: $10.20
SB: $9.20
Hero (BB): $10.00
UTG: $11.00

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with T T
UTG raises to $0.40, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.40, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.25) 2 6 4 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.90, BTN calls $0.90, Hero raises to $2.50, UTG folds, BTN calls $1.60

Turn: ($7.15) K (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($7.15) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $6.30, Hero folds
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:40 AM   #597
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

What's your thoughts on AQs or AQo behind a raiser both IP and OOP?

vs a LP opener, i would generally 3bet, again with the intention of shoving over a 4bet for value, the vast majority of the time.


ok, let's assume you have 100BB each. At NL50 what hands are you expecting AQ to come up against when you get 4 bet. The 4 bet bluff % is close to zero wouldn't you say? Therefore I don't see you being favourite against any hands.


I've been using Pokerstove for a while, but only for hand v hand match ups. Thanks for the tips about using it against ranges. Some of the things are very enlightening.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:52 AM   #598
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Why is the villain's 4bet% close to zero?
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:08 AM   #599
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

great topic,i just wanna say thank you for doing this,ur great man
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:37 AM   #600
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Why is the villain's 4bet% close to zero?
It's the 4 bet bluff % that's close to zero.

I have about 60,000 hands at 25NL and 25,000 at 50NL. Apart from maniacs which are easy to spot and don't tend to last too long, I've only seen a 4bet bluff a hand full of times. At 25NL, there aren't that many people who 3bet bluff either if you ask me.

Maybe my sample is too small or maybe the 4 bet bluff is more successful than I imagine because the 3 better folds. Unfortunately, I lost my PT database a couple of weeks ago following a PC disaster so I can't drag out any useful stats.

I'm a fairly tight player and don't 3 bet bluff that often, but will if I think the other guy is full of it. 4 bet total bluff for me is probably non existent.
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