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Old 08-16-2009, 06:25 PM   #551
Ligic
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

I dont think anyone should worry about which way their red/blue lines are going as long as the green one is going up.
Ofc its nice to have all of them heading up =)
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Old 08-17-2009, 03:22 AM   #552
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by ShonkDove View Post
WOW this thread sux.
have said before that trolls can gtfo. if u dont like this thread then dont read it, simple. doesnt cost u anything at all to read whats in here. if u want to post constructive criticism then fine, but dont post stuff like this plz. it doesnt help anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligic View Post
I dont think anyone should worry about which way their red/blue lines are going as long as the green one is going up.
Ofc its nice to have all of them heading up =)
yes, but the green line is a product of the other two lines. improve one without reducing the other, and the green line (and therefore your winrate) goes up, DUCY?
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Old 08-17-2009, 05:38 AM   #553
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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yes, but the green line is a product of the other two lines. improve one without reducing the other, and the green line (and therefore your winrate) goes up, DUCY?
Well obv. Both go up = larger winrate.

What I meant was that:

Player A is winning 10bb/100 in showdown hands and losing 2bb/100 hands in non-showdown hands, its not that big of a deal since he still has a pretty decent winrate.

Improving one without reducing the other is not an easy thing for many players particularly those who are just starting out and are still grinding uNL.
Especially if one specifically changes his play to improve either, it usually results in spewing or nitting imo.

I do agree with you and understand your point, I probably should've been a bit more clearer on mine.
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:35 AM   #554
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

In poker tracker the non-showdown winnings graph also takes into account the times you post small/big blinds, meaning every round the non-showdown graph goes down 1,5bb. You can change settings that it only measures the hands where you've put $ in pot voluntarily but that obv leaves out a lot of those hands you've played from the blinds (and out of position).
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:49 AM   #555
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

jack I remmember u said something about u gonna post 25NL vids, when is that coming up?
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:15 AM   #556
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by Dude-Bun View Post
so the redline is not something to worry yourself too much about in the micros, just learn the value game imo.
Yes definitly at 10NL, somewhat at 25NL and no at 50NL.
I played ABC at 10nl learning and had very - NSD$ (redline) but won at 15bb/100. At 25nl I played much the same improved a little but still won at 13bb/100.
I think 50nl is the first level where you can play some real poker, at least on pokerstars, but people aren't very good still. You get alot of the TAGfish that jack is talking about. I think its possible to win big here but have a close to + NSD$ won, maybe just a bit -.

Great thread Jack, much good info I think I've sat at some of your tables at 50nl. See ya around.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:27 AM   #557
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by Dude-Bun View Post
jack I remmember u said something about u gonna post 25NL vids, when is that coming up?
i posted 2 vids already but they are a few pages back now. if u havent seen them and want to see them, i can go back to find the links and send them to u.

if you are referring to what i was going to make as part 2... i couldnt worry camtasia basically (tho i have it again now), so i posted the big hands on here. there was nothing else interesting on the video, so although i could add commentary and put it up, i dont think it is video-worthy.

im going to make some nl50 and nl100 vids soon though which will hopefully highlight the lack of difference between the levels in terms of skill jumps.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:53 AM   #558
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Just watched your first video....fantastic.
I really like the fact that you added commentary after recording,
it gives you the change to pause and explain in more details
which is tremendously beneficial for us new at this and also for those not so new :-)

You should make one for every level just using the same format.

Keep this tread up.
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:05 PM   #559
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Hi Jack,

You asked for some subjects to talk about. One thing that I sometimes have a problem with is players (usually bad ones) making weak-looking donk bets on the flop.

Let's say I raise with AK from button, and the BB calls.
Flop comes 4-8-J rainbow, and BB donk leads for $0.75 into pot of $1.80. What do you do? Raise or just give up?

And I find this can be difficult on flushing board when you have something like top pair on a wet board, the opponent donk leads out and you have to decide whether they're trying to stop you raising by charging the price to hit their draw.

Can you talk about donk leads a bit please...
Oh, and should the hero ever do it?

Cheers
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:59 AM   #560
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

just skimmed the thread again, great stuff jack.

Btw, how is Reading ? There is a slim chance I will be there this year for a postgraduate course.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:34 AM   #561
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Some topics for your 50-100nl vids:

- adjustments when moving up: what to do, what not to do
- good spots to bluffraise the turn (either to a cbet or when checked to IP)
- good spots to take down wet flops (ex 5 7 9 dd in 3bet pot?, dunno, something like this) - i guess just moving beyond standard cbetting/2x barreling A/K high flops
- going for thin value on the river
- just play in 3bet pots in general

Some things I could improve on^^
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:07 PM   #562
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

More on how to play 3bet pots OOP correctly. And also, blind vs blind play, especially when being OOP. These are the spots where i'm prone to make big mistakes.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:42 PM   #563
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shafty78 View Post
One thing that I sometimes have a problem with is players (usually bad ones) making weak-looking donk bets on the flop.

Let's say I raise with AK from button, and the BB calls.
Flop comes 4-8-J rainbow, and BB donk leads for $0.75 into pot of $1.80. What do you do? Raise or just give up?

Can you talk about donk leads a bit please...
Oh, and should the hero ever do it?
in your example i would just fold. one major leak of players i find is that they get super spazzy vs anyone who donks into them and start going crazy with bluff raises.

donking is something you want to watch carefully and make notes on what they showdown after doing it. if they are the sort who donk "for information" with middle pair etc, then u can bluff raise. if they donk with top pair to avoid u checking back... well then bluff-raising them isnt going to be too successful...

donking yourself is something that can be used. i am trying to encorporate it more into my game, i think you need to watch for villains who will spazz raise donks - they are obv good to donk into. you should also look to donk boards where villains wont neccessarily cbet because it looks dangerous but may call a bet by you - e.g. a board of 975, someone with 67 probably wont cbet, but they will call a donk. i wouldnt recommed doing it as a bluff until you know how your opponent will react.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayuken View Post
Btw, how is Reading ? There is a slim chance I will be there this year for a postgraduate course.
idk where u r from but its quite expensive in reading. similar in price to london basically because its quite close. so u probs need to get a job when u come here. any night out is going to be 30+ and rent will probs be 80 a week+ unless u live in uni halls. if ur into shopping, reading is pretty decent for that.

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Originally Posted by USS_steamship View Post
More on how to play 3bet pots OOP correctly. And also, blind vs blind play, especially when being OOP. These are the spots where i'm prone to make big mistakes.
idk if u meant when u r the aggressor or not, but never ever ever flat 3bets oop. u will just get so totally owned postflop its better to 4bet or fold.

i will talk about 3bet pots a lot more in a vid hopefully i can make a cool 50nl vid tonight or something.

if you are struggling to play in blind battels, then just stop playing as many hands when its folded to u in the sb. you will be oop for the entire hand, so you should probably play a similar range to what u would do in early position.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:42 PM   #564
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post
i posted 2 vids already but they are a few pages back now. if u havent seen them and want to see them, i can go back to find the links and send them to u.

if you are referring to what i was going to make as part 2... i couldnt worry camtasia basically (tho i have it again now), so i posted the big hands on here. there was nothing else interesting on the video, so although i could add commentary and put it up, i dont think it is video-worthy.

im going to make some nl50 and nl100 vids soon though which will hopefully highlight the lack of difference between the levels in terms of skill jumps.
I cant seem to find the links , if u plz repost them I would be really grateful.

Thanks
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:19 PM   #565
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by Dude-Bun View Post
I cant seem to find the links , if u plz repost them I would be really grateful.

Thanks
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UPC54ALJ

this is the 1st vid i made

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JZQLOIOJ

this is the 2nd vid i made. altho i talk about it being part 1 of 2, due to various reasons there ended up not being a part 2.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:42 PM   #566
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8OHIX6UM

here is a 50nl video i made today. im going to try and write a little bit about what i think the differences are between 10nl/ 25nl/ 50nl, so that players moving up have an idea of what they should look out for, and how to adjust to beat the higher limit games. might take me a little while to work out to word it though
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:44 PM   #567
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by ShonkDove View Post
WOW this thread sux.
sorry to hijack for a second..but this guy seems to troll every chance he gets in beginners.. very rarely does he have anything useful to say..most of the time it's just complete trollness....

solid thread so far jack.. keep it up
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:40 PM   #568
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

tytyty

I'm really looking forward to your explanations on the differences in 10nl/25nl/50nl since im on the verge of movin up from 10 to 25.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:11 AM   #569
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Jack,

Can you talk a little about downswings. I seem to go on lots of nice 10,000 hand spurts with a nice 5-10 ptbb/100 and then all of a sudden i have massive 10 buyin loss days. These days usually coincide with me also running ridic below all in ev expectation. Ive had 2 of these in last 2 weeks or so and their just devestating. The next two days im usually rethinkn my whole game and approach. I think ive learned alot of tricks and such lately and possibly have been going overboard with fancy plays and such.

How often do you have 10 buyin loss days?. Is this just normal?
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:13 AM   #570
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

just tried 50nl last night, blew 50+ bucks away. seems like its tougher than 25nl (or its just my mind playing tricks on me)
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:19 AM   #571
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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How often do you have 10 buyin loss days?. Is this just normal?
i've never had a -10 buyin day at 6max nl hold'em. its obviously dependant on playing style. my suggestion would probably be not to get all in as much when you dont have a big equity advantage. if you are frequently trying to get JJ all in pre flop then you might find yourself in coin flips a lot of the time (my biggest mistake at micros was trying to stack off with JJ)

if you talk to sng players, you will heard that anything up to a 20 buyin swing is pretty standard, because luck plays much more of a part. this is because stacks are shallow and you have to get all in more often.

in cash games, you shouldnt be swinging as much since you shouldnt be getting all in as much, and therefore when you do get all in, you should have quite a big equity advantage over your opponent.

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just tried 50nl last night, blew 50+ bucks away. seems like its tougher than 25nl (or its just my mind playing tricks on me)
losing $50 at nl50 is losing one buy in. try to seperate the actual $$$$ and think in relative terms, of big blinds and buyins. so you lost one buyin. if you had KK and got it in vs AA, you probably lost. does that mean the game is tougher? no. it means you got unlucky.

maybe post the hand in which you lost a buyin so we can analyse whether it was bad luck or bad play?
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:39 AM   #572
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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WOW this thread sux.
I haven't read too much of this thread but I do doubt your statement ..... Can you provide some reasoning? My guess is that you cannot.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:26 AM   #573
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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any night out is going to be 30+
I didn't know you were a t-totaler jack
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:30 AM   #574
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by nyrvana View Post
just tried 50nl last night, blew 50+ bucks away. seems like its tougher than 25nl (or its just my mind playing tricks on me)
What you never lost a buyin at 25NL?

Same happened to me when I took my first shot.

Lost 2BI moved back down.

Built roll, took 2nd shot, lost 2BI, moved back down.

Built roll, took 3rd shot, didn't lose 2BI didn't move back down yet.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:42 AM   #575
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

I really like this thread and appreciate your efforts and I hope you're still answering questions on your old videos.

In your 25nl part 1 video you have QQ (13 mins into the vid) and three bet a min UTG raiser who calls. The flop is A67 and you check. I like your reasoning behind a check but was wondering what you'd do if the villain bet the flop and what you'd do on the turn if you decided to call? Also, if the player was a regular they may try and bluff you off the best hand by representing the Ace after putting you on KK/QQ/JJ/TT - if you had AK/AQ would you check an A67 flop? Would you cbet against a regular or play it similarly to how you played it against the passive fish?

I think you've touched on it a little bit previously but if you have time could you discuss how to cope with tilt? I seem to go way over the top when I lose a buy-in or two and have to stop playing. It's completely unreasonable of me but I believe it's the actual act of losing the hand coupled with losing the money which makes it all the harder to take. Losing with KK vs AA doesn't bother me it's more about making mistakes or stupid plays which annoy me the most.

Thanks
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