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Old 08-04-2009, 04:28 PM   #526
str8 burnt
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

yea the redline was horrible but i couldnt win at showdown ever either, that first bluff looks similar to the tom dwan vs greenstien and eastgate bluff
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Old 08-05-2009, 04:01 AM   #527
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post
so my camtasia trial ended which is gay. i dont wanna buy the full programme so im gonna try and blag my sisters/ parents computer and downloaded a trial version on there to make some more vids...
You could use a free program like camstudio. I don't think it has all the features of camtasia though but you can record a video with it.
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Old 08-05-2009, 07:39 PM   #528
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

in order to help with future posts i make in here, id like some suggestions from people as to what you guys think micro stakes players biggest leaks are. or at least, what you guys maybe struggle with yourself the most.

so far, we we have discussed 3betting and 4betting a bit, which i can go over again and post some math for if people want that.

people said they would like to see me discuss "playing from the blinds". short of 3betting or folding (which is probably your most exploitive strategy at micro's), its hard to go into too much detail on but i can try and give some cool examples if people want.

cbetting/ barreling is maybe a topic i havent touched on which i could do if people want...

but yea, any suggestions of topics would be warmly welcomed.

in terms of video's im going to try and get camtasia sorted or a diff version, so i can put up some more video's soon, in the meantime though theres no reason not to continue this thread like it started, with lots of discussion about theory related stuff
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Old 08-06-2009, 01:52 AM   #529
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post

people said they would like to see me discuss "playing from the blinds". short of 3betting or folding (which is probably your most exploitive strategy at micro's), its hard to go into too much detail on but i can try and give some cool examples if people want.
def this.

I find playing from the blinds 77-JJ (sometimes QQ) and AK tricky at times at the micros, I would like to know what is the thought process when encountering those hands in the blinds HU and multiway pots.

plz discuss this,
thanks.
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:33 AM   #530
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Biggest leak of micro players is not betting the turn enough and not shoving the river enough. And it's not even close.
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Old 08-06-2009, 06:08 AM   #531
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

I would also absolutely love to read about the check/shove river move, for value and as a bluff. What is the reason behind it? when to apply? examples etc.
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Old 08-06-2009, 03:25 PM   #532
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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I would also absolutely love to read about the check/shove river move, for value and as a bluff. What is the reason behind it? when to apply? examples etc.
river check/shoves are hard to find it my database, its not something i really make a habit of doing. mainly because a lot of people dont value bet thinly enough (which is a major leak of a lot of players) and therefore most of the times i go for a check/raise, they end up checking back.
theres is no interesting ones at micro stakes because only time anyone bets the river in position is when they have like the 2nd nuts, so its just super coolers if we do end up getting it in (also since people only bet monsters, its impossible to check/raise bluff)

heres a check/shove for value though. villain is a semi-reg, not particularly good but obv not terribad.

Full Tilt $400.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $394.05
BTN: $439.00
Hero (SB): $794.10
BB: $400.00
UTG: $443.00
MP: $581.30

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is SB with 2 2
4 folds, Hero raises to $16, BB calls $12

Flop: ($32.00) K 8 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

i dont see the point of cbetting here - i think i get floated a lot on boards like this and its going to be really hard to play turn cards. i was planing to just fold to any bet by him after checking

Turn: ($32.00) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $20.00, BB calls $20

obviously i bink off a 2 outer and value bet. hopefully he floats the turn or has some sort of pair which he can call with.

River: ($72.00) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks,

i check for 2 reasons. 1) if he was just on a pure float then this is a really good river card to bluff at, as he can represent 8x or backdoor hearts.
2) if he has 8x or a flush, he is going to value bet himself when i check, whereas if i lead he may only call (i would only call if i had a weak flush or 8x).

BB bets $100.00, Hero raises to $758.10, BB calls $264 all in

Final Pot: $800.00
Hero shows 2 2
Hero wins $797.00
(Rake: $3.00)

he mucked A7, not sure why it doesnt show in the converter.

i dont like his river overbet, because my hand looks like total air when i check the flop, bet the turn, check the river. overbets are cool in times when i can hero call, but since i look like i have absolutely nothing i really dont like it here.
i certainly dont like his call of my shove, since i am never ever shoving a worse hand for value (if i checked a weak flush it would be to check/call), and its also a spot where i am never bluffing since my hand looks crazy weak when i check, bet, check.




heres a river check/shove as a bluff.

villain is a standard tagfish, representative of what you will find a lot at 100nl - playing far too many tables trying to maximise hourly/ rakeback earnings, without paying attention to whats going on.

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $69.10
BTN: $86.25
Hero (SB): $123.55
BB: $100.00
UTG: $215.40
MP: $100.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is SB with T T
1 fold, MP raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.50, 1 fold

i decide to flat because i want to keep in hands that i am really far ahead of, and i dont think he is aggro enough to put me in tough spots post flop, i think he will just be pretty straight forward - cbetting 75% or so, then giving up if he gets called (like most tagfish do at this level).

Flop: ($7.00) 5 3 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $4, Hero calls $4

as expected, he makes a standard cbet so i call. no value in raising, i think that puts me in a tough spot as i dont know how he reacts (different players react really different to check/raises - some think it always = nuts, some think its always bluff etc)

Turn: ($15.00) A (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $10, Hero calls $10

i expect him to barrel broadway cards a lot, because obviously he can represent AJ/ AQ/ AK etc. so i think he bets the ace turn like 100% of the time unless he has something like 88, which he will just check and take to showdown...

River: ($35.00) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $21,

now when he bets again i think he is looking for thin value from something like AJ. since hes playing a lot of tables, i think he would just bet big and hope i call if he has something like a boat. so his sizing indicates thin value.
i think i can check/raise and represent a slowplayed boat or some weird 5x (he doesnt know me well enough to know i wont play 56s or 54s from the blinds, i dont think).

Hero raises to $106.55 all in, MP folds


something to note about players who you see on lots of tables.... if you have ever played 10+ tables yourself, you will know that you dont want to be put in tough decisions because your attention needs to be on other tables.
here, i dont represent a great deal on the river with my check/raise, i literally have a boat or nothing.
however, since he doesnt want to focus all his attention on 1 table, he isnt going to timebank for like 45 seconds thinking about everything i could have... his thought process is likely to be "he c/c c/c c/shove, he must have it, i fold".

moral is, if you are playing people who are on a bunch of tables, spend your timing making moves on them when they make it obvious that they have anything less than a super strong hand because they arent going to be competent hand reads and will just believe you have it
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:27 PM   #533
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post
in order to help with future posts i make in here, id like some suggestions from people as to what you guys think micro stakes players biggest leaks are. or at least, what you guys maybe struggle with yourself the most.

so far, we we have discussed 3betting and 4betting a bit, which i can go over again and post some math for if people want that.

people said they would like to see me discuss "playing from the blinds". short of 3betting or folding (which is probably your most exploitive strategy at micro's), its hard to go into too much detail on but i can try and give some cool examples if people want.

cbetting/ barreling is maybe a topic i havent touched on which i could do if people want...

but yea, any suggestions of topics would be warmly welcomed.

in terms of video's im going to try and get camtasia sorted or a diff version, so i can put up some more video's soon, in the meantime though theres no reason not to continue this thread like it started, with lots of discussion about theory related stuff
id like a bit of handreading/ranging
and flops for cbetting, trying to stop this 90%-100% balls, wasting money on certain flops, mainly low flops i think ie u have aq flop 2 4 6, y cbet whose gonna fold? all pocket pairs are going to call....
ive also started working on when facing cbets, ie flop is 773 and some1 cbets this flop, some times i have decided to bluff reraised there cbet coz i dont think villian has anything, ovb fold to a shove having good results for this, whats ur thoughts? before i started looking at this i was playing fit and fold but coz u miss the flop so much i think im basically burning money here
finding a small tell of aa/kk/qq hands is normally a pot size cbets- generally very quick too....have u experienced this?
also a bit on the turn street when scare cards come, im finding say i have jj flop is 4 9 2 rainbow i bet cbet 2/3pot he calls, turn is say an ace/king, is it right to simply bet again, or check? checking is showing weakness so im finding lots of bets coming my way either on the turn if i check OOp or on the river and sometimes i hero call/sometimes i fold. I accept JJ is a difficult hand to play post flop and its villian related/stacksizes etc etc, just general question
also, if u have aa-qq and the board is relatively dry say 2 6 9 10 and some one reraises u allin do u call? im finding a lot of sets are making this play and its costing me money!
sorry for all the rambling just noticed how much ive asked, its an eassy
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:30 PM   #534
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

nice topic

I just wanted to post my own river cr, what do you think Jack?

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (UTG): $31.50
CO: $34.70
BTN: $28.70
SB: $67.80
BB: $23.20

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with 3 6
Hero raises to $0.85, CO calls $0.85, BTN raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.15, CO calls $2.15

Flop: ($9.35) 4 6 J (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($9.35) T (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

River: ($9.35) 2 (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets $5.50, Hero raises to $28.50 all in, CO folds, BTN folds
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:50 PM   #535
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by str8 burnt View Post
nice topic

I just wanted to post my own river cr, what do you think Jack?
pre flop is like... really bad imo. calling 3bets out of position with 63s is never going to show a profit. you shouldnt even be opening that sort of hand utg..

am assuming river c/r is a bluff? what hand do u put him on, and what you think you represent when you c/r?
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:16 PM   #536
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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id like a bit of handreading/ranging
and flops for cbetting, trying to stop this 90%-100% balls,

sorry for all the rambling just noticed how much ive asked, its an eassy
no, its good, i want people to ask things in the thread and discuss certain concepts.

cbetting

i dont want to write like a major essay, so am assuming 100bb stacks for this, and will use 2 player types to discuss - 1) loose-passive fish, 2) generic tag reg.
i cant discuss every type of board (would take forever) and i cant discuss every aspect of position, so i guess this is pretty general.


flop 1: a low flop like 246

vs a tag reg

assuming we raise and get a caller, most of their hands will be speculative type connectors (67/78 etc), suited broadways (QJ/ KJ), pairs 22-TT.
hands like 45s/65/67s have a pair and wont fold to a bet, 22-TT wont fold because they either have a set or an overpair to the board. KJ/QJ may float you to try and take it away on the turn.
so you can notice that most of their range isnt folding on this flop. however you can also notice that most of their range isnt very strong, and is a 1 pair type hand or worse.

so you have 2 options, you can either check/fold or bet with the intention of firing multiple barrels to get them off of marginal holdings. if the board rolls off good, where the turn and river are over cards (preferably broadways) then you should find it easy to make your opponent fold to either a 2nd or 3rd barrel.



vs a fish - obv depends just on how fishy, you should download pokerstove and just look at 40%, 60%, and 80% of hands to get an idea

his range pre flop is super wide. you will be looking at most aces, suited kings and queens, anything connected, and every pair.
on this flop, most of his range misses, so a cbet should definitally fold out enough of his hands to make it worthwhile. if called, i give up. fish just dont fold and you shouldnt waste your time trying to make them because its just added variance that you dont want.







flop 2: A 8 2 or K 6 3


vs a tag reg

he will likely fold a lot more hands to your cbet rather than float. however there is an increasing number who will float then fold to a 2nd barrel on basically any turn. if you cbet here i recommend firing another on basically any turn. i doubt i would fire a 3rd though because i think his range is defined on the turn quite clearly as Ax or Kx



vs a fish

again, really good board to cbet as it misses most of their range. once again, dont barrel because their calling range is like to be any top pair, which is just never ever folding at any point.






flop 3: middling flop e.g. 6 8 T

vs a tag reg

a lot of his range hits this flop, so its one that you should proceed carefully on. i would be checking back a lot of hands on this flop and just giving up. its way too likely he has pair+straight draw, overs+flush draw etc, and is a board you will find yourself getting c/r-ed on a lot.

vs a fish

same as above really.



this is just a really bad flop to cbet assuming you dont have much of anything. id obviously bet for value with Tx or better, but if i had A high id just be giving up.
one thing to notice on this board is a lot of hands have a pair+straight draw, while only 79 makes a straight, T8/ 68 makes two pair, which a lot of people dont play pre flop...
contrast this to a T96, where T9 makes two pair and 78 makes a straight, and you will see that on the 2nd board, players can make a lot more stronger hands.




summary

in general, you dont want to be cbetting more than 75% at the maximum. i cbet roughly 70% and i think that is borderline too much. is only because i barrel turn over 50% of the time that i think i can get away with it.

check-raises are usually very strong hands. i dont think many people c/r bluff, and if they do, you will see it in the HUD v.quickly because their c/r number will be like 25%. so i proceed against check-raises very carefully.

against check-calls, i will usually assume weak pairs/ draws, so therefore i will be looking to barrel any turn which looks bad for their hand and good for my perceived range (most people will auto-put you on big broadway cards when you raise pre flop). i will value bet the turn and river with top pair+ until i am told that my hand isnt any good (i.e. if they raise me)

also, dont underestimate the value of A high when you miss. AK or AQ are good hands for checking down even though people get attached to cbetting. its unlikely your opponent folds a pair on the flop, and if he doesnt have a pair, then AK/ AQ usually has him pretty crushed since he has 6 outs with live cards, or 3 outs if he has Ax/Kx/Qx

Last edited by jackwilcox; 08-06-2009 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:18 PM   #537
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post
pre flop is like... really bad imo. calling 3bets out of position with 63s is never going to show a profit. you shouldnt even be opening that sort of hand utg..

am assuming river c/r is a bluff? what hand do u put him on, and what you think you represent when you c/r?
lol awesome. It was fun though

I honesly thought he had ak with how he played every steet but the riv. Maybe i should have just hero called but i thought i could get him off thin vbs so i just spaz shoved.

as for what i represent, hmm. good question. Well i am under the gun so I should have a decent hand right. Mayb I was waiting to cr my monster on the flop and turn but never got the chance
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:42 PM   #538
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Id really appreciate it if you could discuss floating in a video anytime soon.
Vs which kind of player, and which kind of boards.
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:44 PM   #539
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

thanks for the reply man, holy ****, ur def going to have to make this a book and sell it on the 2+2 books, make a fortune with the info on it! lol
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Old 08-06-2009, 06:52 PM   #540
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

awesome thread. thers a lot of good stuff in here.
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Old 08-06-2009, 07:04 PM   #541
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

I don't mean to hijack this thread or anything jack, but in the DC series From the Ground Up Ep3, they cover cbetting quite well.

This is their list of board textures sorted by how good they are to cbet:

K-x-x/Q-x-x
Paired Board
A-x-x
High Cards (K-J-x)
Low Cards (7-4-2)
Connected
Monotone
Two-tone
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:41 PM   #542
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

just watched the video, thanks OP
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Old 08-14-2009, 09:20 PM   #543
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

1st of all id like to apologise that i havent updated the thread for a while. i havent been playing much poker lately, so havent put in any hours at the micro's (i dont know whats happened to the last 2 weeks of my life they seem to have just disappeared )

Quote:
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Id really appreciate it if you could discuss floating in a video anytime soon.
Vs which kind of player, and which kind of boards.
floating is not too hard a concept to talk about actually. especially in relation to nl50 - nl200.

what you will find at the levels between nl50 and nl200, is that there are a lot of regulars who are playing 10+ tables - rakeback grinders who are playing far too many tables, relying on bonuses to make their money, rather than actually outplaying their opponents*

their stats will typically look like 17/15 or something, you should be able to notice just because they are on like every table anyway....

if you look closer, you will see their cbet stat is ridiculously high (80%+), while their turn cbet (i.e. double barrel stat) is a lot lower. this is because they will be the sort of players who raise pre flop, make a cbet and give up if called. their red lines will be totally disgraceful - all their money comes from stacking fish when they make a set or whatever.

anyway, point is, these are great people to float. especially on dry boards (A or K high boards are best), they will mostly be check-folding the turn if they dont have a pair - since unpaired cards only flop a pair ~33% of the time, the fact that are cbetting 80%+ will indicate that the majority of the time they are missing.

so frequently, you can float the flop, and if checked to on the turn, bet half pot and take it down. alternatively, you can raise their flop bet by 2.5x or so, and so long as you dont overdo it, you should get enough respect that they fold anything less than top pair.

of course, any type of equity on the flop - bottom pair/ gutshot etc - adds to my liklihood to float these players since then i can make the best hand on the turn by hitting one of my outs rather than relying purely on bluff potential.



floating other types of players is a little more complex... as a generalisation you want to look for the type of player listed above. also, you should be inclined to float/ bluff raise flops which hit your perceived calling range pre flop.

when you call pre flop rather than 3bet, most people will put you on some sort of small pair/ suited connectors, since these are the type of hands you want to call with and see a flop. furthermore, their likely raising range includes a lot of high cards (the standard AK/ AQ type hands etc), so therefore flops such as 467 hit your perceived range a lot harder than their perceived range, even if in reality you are no where near it.



*dont turn into one of these, whatever you do.
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:57 PM   #544
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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*dont turn into one of these, whatever you do.
Too late! I am just a full-ring player anyhow though.
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Old 08-16-2009, 12:55 PM   #545
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Hey jack! V nice thread! Thanks a lot for doing it for us.

I'd like you to comment about the red line graph as you talked about it in your last post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post
their red lines will be totally disgraceful - all their money comes from stacking fish when they make a set or whatever.
I'd apreciate a lot if you could explain more about how we can have an even red line graph or maybe up. My red line is really down, and I think I'm in the kind of player you talked about. Can u also post your showdown/non showdown winnings graph in these experiment?

Thanks again!
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:16 PM   #546
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

my red line is nothing to brag about, and its certainly not positive. but its improving as i get better and improve my game.

you will find as you move up that you probably lose a lot in non-showdown pots. you will find yourself making mistakes early in the hand before realising you have to fold etc. so dont be too alarmed if this is happening. its just experience. i find that my red line really deteriorates if i play 8 tables or so. usually i lose concentration and turn into auto-pilot mode.


basically your red line really crashes if you start folding in big pots... peeling the flop and turn to fold the river... raising the flop and realising that perhaps you shouldnt have (and thus folding the turn)... 3betting pre flop and cbetting a bad board...




mostly though id say two things affect your red line most. either cbetting too much and giving up when called. or betting flop and turn, then bet/folding the river.

in case 1 - cbet less frequently, and when u do, fire multiple barrels on good boards. you will really be surprised how much you save yourself by not firing that cbet on the really bad, draw heavy flops, which are always getting a caller.

in case 2 - use a bit of pot control on the turn, or dont bet quite so big. if you bloat the pot then decide you actually didnt want to make the pot that big, then you have made quite a big error. so re-evaluate some hands when you have had a couple of days away from the tables and see if you maybe made the pots too big before deciding you had to fold, and whether you could have saved yourself that extra bet before deciding to throw your hand away
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Old 08-16-2009, 03:33 PM   #547
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

ok, jack!
thanks a lot for the answer. after this thread i've tried to change my game a bit and i think its getting better.

thanks for this job youre doing for the micros.
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Old 08-16-2009, 04:09 PM   #548
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

I havent tested this on 25NL but on 10NL and downwards whenever my redline is soaring im -ev. I have once in a while the kind of session I'll feel creative and make moves but I found that I will get insta-called way too lightly and mindlessly to be +ev.

Even if my read is dead on, sometimes a guy will call you down with jj when there are 2 overs just because he's thinkin "I cant fold jj.. lets call to death".

so the redline is not something to worry yourself too much about in the micros, just learn the value game imo.

note: double barrelling and semi-bluffs and pure bluffs are not to be ignored and excluded, and I agree with OP that one should never become a multi-million-table-nit, I'm just sayin.. be careful with those because many fish are swimming in that pond, and they have an itch they're scratchin' with the call button
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:55 PM   #549
jackwilcox
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

another thing to remember obviously, is that if you try to bluff more to push your red line up... those times you get called down, your blue line will fall (because obv you're losing at showdown).

so 'trying' to push up your red line wont necessarily result in better winrates due to the times you get called down when bluffing.

focusing on solid play will ineveitably push up both red and blue lines, thus increasing winrates. its important to remember that when your value bet doesnt called, your red line goes up and when it does get called, your red line stays the same but blue line goes up. making more value bets is the best way to increase your winrate, essentially.
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Old 08-16-2009, 06:00 PM   #550
ShonkDove
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post
another thing to remember obviously, is that if you try to bluff more to push your red line up... those times you get called down, your blue line will fall (because obv you're losing at showdown).

so 'trying' to push up your red line wont necessarily result in better winrates due to the times you get called down when bluffing.

focusing on solid play will ineveitably push up both red and blue lines, thus increasing winrates. its important to remember that when your value bet doesnt called, your red line goes up and when it does get called, your red line stays the same but blue line goes up. making more value bets is the best way to increase your winrate, essentially.
WOW this thread sux.
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