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Old 07-28-2009, 11:50 PM   #501
str8 burnt
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by quirkasaurus View Post
fwiw -- when i first read the hand i said to myself "oh, he's repping 56s
and he hit the straight on the river..."

Then, of course, the pre-flop action made no sense.

So, in this case - - - maybe the dude was multi-tabling and forgot the
pre-flop action ( as i did... )
Quote:
the above hand i dont know wtf , the all in on the river seems stupid what on earth are you representing with a pre flop raise if he has anything more than one pair hes going to call and own you .

Yea these tripple barrels are risky, i guess when i 3 bet and get called im just trying to push u off your 10 10 jj or whatever 1 pair hand your hangn on to. Im using the power of my preflop play. Im saying I got that huge pair and im gonna milk you and shove the riva. I'm not sure half pot c bet then half your stack on turn isnt better tho. At the time i just liked having tht huge bet on the river to get folds without people getting too commited.

lol, of course im getting snaped off with 2 pair plus, but thats hard to hit in a 3bet or 4 bet pot

I have toned down the 3 betting and therefore the 3 bet triple or double barreling alot as I dont think its necessary at nl25. Im back to running like god recently, playing standard 4x open, near pot cbet, and double barrl nits and suspected floaters poker

Last edited by str8 burnt; 07-29-2009 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:22 AM   #502
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by jackwilcox View Post
in response to the idea of checking back the flop when i miss with a hand like AQ/AK....


2) those times you are at tables that arent full of fish and are actually full of regs, you can expect those players to have HUD's. if they see you are cbetting 80% of flops, then you become really check-raiseable because no one can hit a flop that often, and you will find yourself potentially becoming prone to getting check-raise bluffed on some boards.
I don't really disagree with much of anything you wrote but from my experiences grinding it up from 5NL through 25NL I only get check raised a few times a session on the flop when cbetting like crazy. Given how much I am cbetting I tend to believe they had a hand. So I guess what I am trying to say is that at these levels I would tend to error towards cbetting more rather than less.

I have been experimenting with cbetting less but over and over I look down and the table where I am up two buy ins is the one where I am cbetting 80% and the one I am up less than a buy in is the one I am cbetting 55%. I have had reasonable success with the delayed cbet though.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:27 AM   #503
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Yea these tripple barrels are risky, i guess when i 3 bet and get called im just trying to push u off your 10 10 jj or whatever 1 pair hand your hangn on to. Im using the power of my preflop play. Im saying I got that huge pair and im gonna milk you and shove the riva. I'm not sure half pot c bet then half your stack on turn isnt better tho. At the time i just liked having tht huge bet on the river to get folds without people getting too commited.

lol, of course im getting snaped off with 2 pair plus, but thats hard to hit in a 3bet or 4 bet pot

I have toned down the 3 betting and therefore the 3 bet triple or double barreling alot as I dont think its necessary at nl25. Im back to running like god recently, playing standard 4x open, near pot cbet, and double barrl nits and suspected floaters poker
If you have a Stoxpoker membership watch the video called "Pegging Pot Control." It's right up your alley and all about shoving the river when a tight villain is using pot control. Prerequisites include:

1) a tight villain that cares about his stack.
2) You are in position
3) Villain bets flop and then checks turn and river.
4) You have virtually any two cards.
5) You have well over a pot sized bet remaining.

Pretty good video imo especially since he basically points out that you don't need to worry too much about repping anything.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:18 AM   #504
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

the above poster it interesting what u say about c-betting , i also found tables where i was c-betting the most i was making more money but ive also looked into mixing it up a bit. their are some boards that are so wet or in yr vilians range yr c-bet will get called.
funny / interesting thing happened the other day i was c-betting like 80% of the time to this guys checks and he was folding , but then next hand he check raised me with nothing and shown it , in the chat he said something like my HUD shows u r c-betting 80% stop it!! lol , im not sure why he told me this beacuse after that every time he checked and i had a draw i checked behind him , every time i hit the board hard i would bet and he would check raise me , so i won even more off him, if he had nt of told me what he did im sure he would of won money of me.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:19 AM   #505
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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the above poster it interesting what u say about c-betting , i also found tables where i was c-betting the most i was making more money but ive also looked into mixing it up a bit. their are some boards that are so wet or in yr vilians range yr c-bet will get called.
funny / interesting thing happened the other day i was c-betting like 80% of the time to this guys checks and he was folding , but then next hand he check raised me with nothing and shown it , in the chat he said something like my HUD shows u r c-betting 80% stop it!! lol , im not sure why he told me this beacuse after that every time he checked and i had a draw i checked behind him , every time i hit the board hard i would bet and he would check raise me , so i won even more off him, if he had nt of told me what he did im sure he would of won money of me.
lol, i cant believe he told u this and then still check raises you with air!
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:27 AM   #506
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

lol i know i found it funny that he check raised me with air and showed me and then typed in the box why he did it .then i couldnt beleive how he didnt adjust after wards i guess he relies on his HUD way to much
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:51 AM   #507
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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lol i know i found it funny that he check raised me with air and showed me and then typed in the box why he did it .then i couldnt beleive how he didnt adjust after wards i guess he relies on his HUD way to much
[ ] you're right
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:55 AM   #508
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

did i miss part 2 of the video? or isn't it ready yet?
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Old 07-30-2009, 03:58 PM   #509
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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did i miss part 2 of the video? or isn't it ready yet?
have been super busy lately, will put it up tomorrow. soz havent got it up already
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:46 PM   #510
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

What specific poker books would you recommend Jack? I mean no-limit hold'em.

Last edited by USS_steamship; 07-31-2009 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Elaboration
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Old 07-31-2009, 03:46 PM   #511
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by USS_steamship View Post
What specific poker books would you recommend Jack? I mean no-limit hold'em.
Books suck, just spend a lot of time in the forums and post hands and discuss.
Or get deucescracked videos for free with the 7day trial. Its free and it will make you crash micros in no time.
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:00 PM   #512
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

yea i kinda agree, i mean you will spend mostly around $20 on a book. i have read books, but none which particularly helped me for cash games, and certainly none that i would overly recommend from the point of view that it will cost you ~10% of your bankroll...

video sites are certainly the best way to go if you can get them for free/ cheap.
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Old 08-01-2009, 01:04 AM   #513
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

the ssnl stickies are pretty dam good imo, it took me awhile to find them, but they're the bread and butter of value from this site ( and access to wilcox of course )
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Old 08-01-2009, 01:33 AM   #514
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

Just found this post, it's amazing.

Thanks for sharing all this. As a NL10 player atm, I'm glad I found that.

Will follow for sure, thanks again, it's much appreciated!
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Old 08-01-2009, 03:46 AM   #515
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

okay so no-limit books are not that useful after all?


But about that 25NL part1 video, it was at around 50mins, it was the bottom left table and it was 5-handed when you raised KQo UTG. 37/0/1.5 player called on the button (he had a full stack). The flop came T-Q-T rainbow, you made about a potsized cbet and he called. You both checked the Ace turn, and then you check-folded on a 3 river when he bet a little less than half the pot.

You said he called the flop bet quickly indicating a likely weak hand, then on the turn when the ace came you were splitting if he had hit the queen too and you didn't think he'd call another bet with 6-6, 7-7 type hands so you didn't bet. But why the fold when the river card changed nothing and the opponent's hand doesn't look like anything special either? You didn't explain in the video why you folded there, so what was your thought-process?

From the opponent's point of view (though he may have been thinking about his own hand strength only, he didn't seem a particularly good player), it looks like you cbet a missed hand and didn't hit that ace either since you didn't bet the turn or the river. Although at the same time there was a big pot at the other table where you and another opponent hit big hands and you lost, maybe that distracted you a little bit in this hand?
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Old 08-01-2009, 05:04 AM   #516
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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What specific poker books would you recommend Jack? I mean no-limit hold'em.
i see a lot of ppl have recommended the stickies, awesome read!

i would also recommand, going into the full ring mirco and the concept of the week is in there, every week some1 writes an arctile abt chosen things, like cbeting,value betting,bluffing, 3betting, really really good reads in there!

again, most ppl hit it on the head, y pay when u can get it for free here!

also, y not invest $30 for a month and go to deuce cracked, u can download as much as u want and cancel ur account and still watch them as they are not date controlled.

NOTE I DID THIS AND TO BE HONEST I'M PROB GONNA KEEP PAYING THE FEE AS THE MATERIAL IN THE VIDEOS ARE PRICELESS FOR PPL WILLING TO WATCH AND LEARN!!!!

check out all tubasteve videos-AWESOME
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:52 AM   #517
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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Originally Posted by USS_steamship View Post
it was 5-handed when you raised KQo UTG. 37/0/1.5 player called on the button (he had a full stack). The flop came T-Q-T rainbow, you made about a potsized cbet and he called. You both checked the Ace turn, and then you check-folded on a 3 river when he bet a little less than half the pot.

why the fold when the river card changed nothing and the opponent's hand doesn't look like anything special either?

Although at the same time there was a big pot at the other table where you and another opponent hit big hands and you lost, maybe that distracted you a little bit in this hand?
someone with 1.5 aggression factor is a pretty passive player (not overly passive, but certainly not aggressive). that coupled with the fact that he hasnt raised any hands pre flop makes me think hes what you could consider a loose-passive player who likes to call down, but rarely bets or raises.

when he calls me on a QTT flop, its likely he has something. whether that be Tx, Qx, KJ, J9. obviously on the ace turn, i now split with Qx, lose to KJ, still lose to Tx, and am ahead of J9. no point in betting...

on the river, i check for the same reason i check the turn. i dont expect him to ever be betting a worse hand for value than Qx. and because of his low aggression factor, i think he will check back the river a lot with Qx.

so for me, his betting range on the river is mostly slowplayed hands and bluffs. and someone with 1.5 aggression factor (which is pretty low) isnt bluffing there a lot, because as i already said, they just dont bet. they call or check.

i might have been distracted by other table, but most likely, i didnt see any value in calling on the river. at least when i think about it now, i still think its a good fold based on that he can never really have any bluffs in his range (except J9) and everything else that he is betting beats me or occasionally splits with me

Last edited by jackwilcox; 08-01-2009 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:58 AM   #518
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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okay so no-limit books are not that useful after all?
not in comparison to the content which you will find on here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69...hreads-430489/


https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/39...ection-100801/

the above links contain more information than you will find in any cash game book on hold'em and is obviously all free because its on here.

also, books are no comparison to what you will find on the video training sites such as deuces cracked, cardrunners, leggo poker, blue fire poker etc. im not sure how much they cost, but they are certainly better value than a book imo
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:25 PM   #519
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

pretty quiet in here...
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:51 PM   #520
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

man i spewed off 9 and a half buy ins at nl 50 13 tabln and cbetn 100 prcnt other day, you ever have these kind of sessions jack?
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Old 08-04-2009, 03:06 PM   #521
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

so my camtasia trial ended which is gay. i dont wanna buy the full programme so im gonna try and blag my sisters/ parents computer and downloaded a trial version on there to make some more vids...

however, there was 2 big hands from part 2 of the 25nl video which i want to share with you guys. there are both bluffs which go wrong, but they are still interesting. i really like my play in both hands and think i get unlucky - of course bluffs cant work every time - but it reiterates the need to just play solid poker at these levels i guess.

ok 1st hand:

UTG is super nit, playing like 10/6 after 90 hands or so.
UTG+1 is generic tag playing like 21/16.


Poker Stars $25.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): $77.20
UTG: $32.60
MP: $26.70
CO: $25.00
BTN: $18.40
SB: $48.15

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with T 9
UTG raises to $0.85, MP calls $0.85, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.85, SB calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.60

standard flat with T9s. plays well multiway and im getting good pot odds.

Flop: ($4.25) 2 T 2 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $2.50, MP calls $2.50, BTN folds, SB folds,

so UTG makes a standard cbet on a super dry board which i expect him to do with his entire range. while he is 10/6, he is still opening hands like AK/ AQ UTG which i beat.
UTG+1's flat pre flop would lead me to assume he is mainly set mining. occasionally slowplaying a big hand, but mainly his range will be 22-JJ, AJs+, KQs, a couple hands like JTs etc too. when he flats flop, i assume his range to be 22, 77-JJ, Tx.

so its back round to me with top pair. i could call here, but that puts me in a real tough spot on turns and rivers as im going to have to fold to any further action, and calling *hoping* to check it down is just really bad especially out of position (and is a mistake i think a lot of players make).

so i decide to turn my hand into a bluff. note that card combinations mean there is only 1 combo each of 22 and TT. i dont think 2x is in either of their ranges for obvious reasons. on the other hand, i can very credibly represent 2x since i can be flatting a super wide range in big blind with those pot odds. i think they both have to fold Tx or overpairs to a raise here and even if they dont fold overpairs, then the times UTG has AK or something means that i should get enough folds anyway.

i raise to $8.50. pot is about $9. so my bluff has to was around 50% of the time to break even, and with the strength i am showing, coupled with the really narrow range of hands that can continue vs a raise, im going to show a profit in this spot.

Hero raises to $8.50, UTG folds, MP raises to $16.25, Hero folds

unfortunately it goes wrong but what can i do. sometimes bluffs dont work, it doesnt mean that it was a terrible mistake to try.

again, the reason why flatting is bad, is because i am behind anyone who has a T or better, and therefore i dont think a call is going to be profitable in the long run due to the amount of times im behind to a hand like JT.
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Old 08-04-2009, 03:18 PM   #522
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

2nd hand:

villain seems like a reg playing 19/19. i dont expect him to stack off particularly lightly on a board like this.


Poker Stars $25.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (SB): $42.15
BB: $41.80
UTG: $99.00
CO: $5.00
BTN: $26.55

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with J Q
2 folds, BTN raises to $0.85, Hero calls $0.75, 1 fold

standard flat here. this is the sort of hand i will flat from the blinds vs button/ cut off openers. id be folding it to an utg open, as it wouldnt have an equity advantage over their pre flop holdings.
3betting takes away a lot of the value that arises from domination issues where the flop is Qxx and you have QJ vs his Q9s or something.

Flop: ($1.95) T 9 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.50, Hero raises to $4.75, BTN calls $3.25

i expect him to be cbetting this board a lot so a c/r should show an immediate profit based on the amount of folds i get. when called i still have a lot of equity in the pot.
i can represent quite a strong hand by c/ring this flop as i can have 44, 99, TT quite often considering the small range of hands i am playing from the blinds.
when he flats, i assume his range to be Tx and overpairs. i dont think he would slowplay a set on this board, and id expect a flush draw to try and get it all in on the flop when they have the most equity (obviously flush draws lose equity when turn bricks) and before they hit their flush which might kill the action.

Turn: ($11.45) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $6.50, BTN calls $6.50

a good turn card for me as unlikely the 6 improved him unless he has 78 (small part of his range). i can continue to represent a strong hand by betting because sets are well within my range, and if i was semi-bluffing on the flop with 78 i just hit too.
his flat call to me looks like Tx still not believing, or a stubborn overpair that doesnt want to fold. i cant see why he would continue to slowplay now the pot is big.

River: ($24.45) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $30.05, BTN calls $14.45 all in

i was planning to shut down on river if i didnt improve but i think this is the perfect bluff card. i cant ever see him having a big hand after flatting flop and turn, whereas i can now represent boats and flushes (id be check/raising flush draws on the flop, especially if they had a gutshot to go with them e.g. KJ).
so i decide to shove. i think there is literally no way he can call with Tx or an overpair. he might call with AA just because people get too attached to it, but that specific hand is such a small part of his range.
note, my effective shove is $14.45, which is just under 2/3rds pot, so i only have to be successfull here 40% of the time. if he "flips a coin" to decide, then i show a profit.

unfortunately i get called by K2 which i think he played really badly. obviously in this spot i have total air, but i dont have history with him so he could never know i am bluffing here. i am never shoving a worse hand for value on the river (i.e. i would only have A high flushes or boats) so i think he should either be folding the flop (as he is miles behind my value range and has reverse implied odds when he hits) or he should shove the flop if he thinks i am bluffing. QJ is literally the only bluff i can show up with in this spot, and its never going to be often enough to justify this call
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Old 08-04-2009, 03:21 PM   #523
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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man i spewed off 9 and a half buy ins at nl 50 13 tabln and cbetn 100 prcnt other day, you ever have these kind of sessions jack?
i would never cbet 100%, and even less so if i was playing 13 tables. i guarentee at least 5 of those 9 'buyins' were lost in non-showdown pots. your redline must be a train wreck
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:12 PM   #524
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

imo the 109 hand you posted is a major case of fancy play syndrome. The way to beat 25nl is to play straight forward and learn how to value bet and fold. Turning top pair into a bluff in a 5 way pot just seems that your trying a bit to hard.
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:25 PM   #525
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Re: NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

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imo the 109 hand you posted is a major case of fancy play syndrome. The way to beat 25nl is to play straight forward and learn how to value bet and fold. Turning top pair into a bluff in a 5 way pot just seems that your trying a bit to hard.
yea... i was recording a video though and folding is boring. i still think it works 50% of the time.

anyway point was that yea, u dont need to bluff
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