Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Beginners Questions Poker beginner? Ask your (possibly) naive question here and our community will attempt to help you.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-08-2009, 02:40 AM   #1
Mscimitar
grinder
 
Mscimitar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Glad to be here.
Posts: 439
Never fold kings preflop?

I always hear people say this, yet my own experiences never show that this is often right.

I understand that kings are the 2nd best hand preflop to hold, and it gets me to think that I will win with them a majority of the time. Maybe I'm just playing them wrong and would like some insight, because as of now, I'm 2 for 12 with kings on the day, running into aces 6 times.

During those 6 times, the villain had reraised me preflop a substantial amount, and every time, I thought to myself, he has aces, I should fold. But I never did, obviously, because I was holding kings. I just shoved into them, and got to see aces every time. Is this the wrong play? Should I be calling and seeing a flop instead, and then folding if the villain is still very aggressive? Because I'm sure there's a line between variance and making the wrong play, and I feel like not folding kings in many spots, especially at full ring, is the wrong play.

Of course, I could just be tilted.

Any help or insight is appreciated, thank you.
Mscimitar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 02:43 AM   #2
Lego05
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 24,105
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Over like a million cash game hands I've purposely folded KK pre-flop for less than 200BB's exactly once.
Lego05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 02:43 AM   #3
Jimmus
adept
 
Jimmus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: AB, Canada
Posts: 1,005
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Go over all of your hand histories in HEM or PT3 where you had pocket Kings. I'm willing to bet you at least 20% of the time villain did not have aces... Especially if you play 6-max. Everyone has flukey days where they run into overpairs or set over set often, but it's true that you should never really fold Kings preflop.

I think this was just a bad day for you, my friend.
Jimmus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 02:47 AM   #4
Amoff
grinder
 
Amoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 634
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

I've only ever folded KK pre twice, once right and I felt like a hero, once wrong and i felt like a complete tool!

Now I'm just of the opinion that I'd not fold and if he has AA then gg and reload! (Barring some horrendously insane read!)
Amoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 02:52 AM   #5
Cry Me A River
Orange is the new Green
 
Cry Me A River's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 23,791
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...my-set-121694/
Cry Me A River is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 02:55 AM   #6
Combat Waitress
old hand
 
Combat Waitress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,789
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

I never fold KK preflop even if with the read that he has AA. It's an experimental thing for me to determine whether the motif is true, and I keep a tally of the results. So far, I've been pleasantly surprised more often than correct.
Combat Waitress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 03:10 AM   #7
Mscimitar
grinder
 
Mscimitar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Glad to be here.
Posts: 439
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Thanks for the replies guys, I really appreciate it.

And sorry CMAR, I should probably do a search before I post . But at least I wasn't met with contempt or derision haha. <3

Anywho, chalk one up for variance then, I'll keep shoving those kings, my confidence was just shattered after a day like today, but I'll pull myself up.
Mscimitar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 04:42 AM   #8
Fissshhhhh
veteran
 
Fissshhhhh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: BandiChime's Pocket
Posts: 2,847
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

I'd rather lose KK to AA than fold and be shown QQ.
Fissshhhhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 04:51 AM   #9
Sir Poko
grinder
 
Sir Poko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 457
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

I folded KK once preflop after I 3bet MP after UTG raised and one of the blinds 4bet and the UTG guy pushed. All player were over 100 BB deep. They ended up having AA and QQ. Even though I was right this time, I really don't ever recommend folding KK preflop, no matter how certain you are the villain has AA.
Sir Poko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 05:59 AM   #10
DaBadGuy
banned
 
DaBadGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 586
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Only in DON's
DaBadGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 06:33 AM   #11
bigtoe82
journeyman
 
bigtoe82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: London
Posts: 385
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

The only time I have ever folded KK pre....

Absolute Poker $25.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BTN): $59.98
SB: $9.35
BB: $29.34
UTG: $26.73
CO: $43.45

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with K K
1 fold, CO raises to $0.85, Hero raises to $2.90, 1 fold, BB calls $2.65, CO raises to $8.85, Hero calls $5.95, BB raises to $29.34, CO raises to $43.45, 1 fold

Flop: ($67.63) 5 6 8 (2 players)

Turn: ($67.63) 4 (2 players)

River: ($67.63) J (2 players)

Final Pot: $67.63
BB shows A A
CO shows K K
BB wins $64.63
(Rake: $-11.11)
bigtoe82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 07:06 AM   #12
zOrO2k6
adept
 
zOrO2k6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Past-Posting
Posts: 1,063
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

never fold KK in cashgames
maybe just in a tourney.

it depents
zOrO2k6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 10:55 AM   #13
OsTornado
Pooh-Bah
 
OsTornado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,696
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zOrO2k6 View Post
never fold KK in cashgames 100 bb deep.
maybe just in a tourney.

it depends
fyp
OsTornado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 11:06 AM   #14
hoplo
old hand
 
hoplo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,263
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

only thing worse than folding KK to QQ is seeing a K hit on the flop.
hoplo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 11:19 AM   #15
KimBauer
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 187
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

to fold KK PF you would need VERY special circumstances.

#1 you are both VERY deep 300BB+
#2 bubble play in Dons or similiar tourneys, where u could safely fold into money
#3 you have a unique read on the villain (more for live then online)
#4 villain is the supertightrock who even limps AK/KK
KimBauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 11:43 AM   #16
hodgie19
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 546
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

What about not 4betting preflop vs rocks? Because they are really only 3 betting with AA,KK QQ and AK. If you see the flop and its all lower cards well then I guess you are screwed vs AA but you win vs QQ. If they have AA then they hit a set 12% of the time. 18% of the time they hit an A with AK well you can fold that too. You can fold that. If you hit a set they are going AI anyways with AK and AA. You probably shouldnt fold KK preflop but I don't think its always an automatic AI. Maybe just call instead of 4betting.
hodgie19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 11:46 AM   #17
hodgie19
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 546
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Oh and id like to see if someonen could filter their AI's preflop for more than 50BBs with KK vs players who are competant. IE vpip/pfr of 15/12, 10/8 etc. I doubt you will be showing a profit.
hodgie19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 11:47 AM   #18
Snipa
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: If your french please **** off.
Posts: 1,896
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

The only time im ever folding KK is if its the bubble of a SnG/MTT and theres 1 or 2 people will be all in within a blind or two.

Or if like 4+ people go all in pre-flop, which happens alot in donkey MTT's ive noticed.
Snipa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 11:58 AM   #19
Johnny2Gunnz
grinder
 
Johnny2Gunnz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Tejas
Posts: 665
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgie19 View Post
Oh and id like to see if someonen could filter their AI's preflop for more than 50BBs with KK vs players who are competant. IE vpip/pfr of 15/12, 10/8 etc. I doubt you will be showing a profit.
This is very, very wrong.
Johnny2Gunnz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 12:01 PM   #20
llDayo
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 462
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

I folded KK once preflop (live home game) after I raised in MP, cutoff shove, dealer (my wife) shoves, and SB shoves. I folded face up. My wife had QQ, the other two had J10 and KJ (they were shorter stacked). I figured my wife for AA and was wrong. She hit quads though so it ended up being a good fold!
llDayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 12:03 PM   #21
SmokeyS
grinder
 
SmokeyS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 446
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by llDayo View Post
I folded KK once preflop (live home game) after I raised in MP, cutoff shove, dealer (my wife) shoves, and SB shoves. I folded face up. My wife had QQ, the other two had J10 and KJ (they were shorter stacked). I figured my wife for AA and was wrong. She hit quads though so it ended up being a good fold!
Well if you bust your wife she probably won't let you bust one later.
SmokeyS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 12:34 PM   #22
hodgie19
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 546
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny2Gunnz View Post
This is very, very wrong.
Are you sure? I run in that range and I never go AI pre with AK or QQ for more than 50BBs vs competent players because competent players are showing up with AA KK and QQ. And its AA 75% of the time and QQ 20% of the time and maybe AK sometimes. Its gotten to the point where I hate going AI with KK even though I do it anyways.
hodgie19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 12:46 PM   #23
Spraggy
Just Plain Nasty
 
Spraggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: #Heel
Posts: 9,095
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by llDayo View Post
I folded KK once preflop (live home game) after I raised in MP, cutoff shove, dealer (my wife) shoves, and SB shoves. I folded face up. My wife had QQ, the other two had J10 and KJ (they were shorter stacked). I figured my wife for AA and was wrong. She hit quads though so it ended up being a good fold!
No it didn't it was still horrendous.
Spraggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 12:54 PM   #24
mmac900
banned
 
mmac900's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Swimming with the fishes
Posts: 3,197
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgie19 View Post
Are you sure? I run in that range and I never go AI pre with AK or QQ for more than 50BBs vs competent players because competent players are showing up with AA KK and QQ. And its AA 75% of the time and QQ 20% of the time and maybe AK sometimes. Its gotten to the point where I hate going AI with KK even though I do it anyways.
You will have KK when someone has AA 1 in 22 times, ur math is very wrong.
mmac900 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2009, 01:28 PM   #25
OsTornado
Pooh-Bah
 
OsTornado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,696
Re: Never fold kings preflop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmac900 View Post
You will have KK when someone has AA 1 in 22 times, ur math is very wrong.
Yeah, but a lot of those times that you have kinds you will take down the pot pre, or get called pre. This is a situation where the other guy is 3 or 4 betting you. So the times that they will have AA when you have KK in these situations is probably much less than 1 in 22.
OsTornado is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online