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01-17-2018 , 02:37 PM
Lurked this site a few times, never posted.
I need some other views on a hand I played this weekend that, if I played incorrectly, how bad did I play it.

1-3NLH
I have 5c6c on the button.
MP makes it $15 to go. I'm the only caller.
Flop 4c9d7c, MP bets $50 (with about $300 left)
I jam about $225, he calls, turn 6d, river 2h.
He flips KhKd.

The player involved here was very tight, didn't play many hands, and folded and shook his head to almost any other raise.

How bad was it?
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01-17-2018 , 02:48 PM
very easy fold preflop with this stacksize and his raise size, if you were deeper you might want to 3bet it from time to time, just dont flat huge raises with low suited connectors

postflop is self explenatory, you have the nuts, there is no wrong way of playing this hand (except for folding it at any point)
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01-17-2018 , 02:58 PM
Fold pre. Flatting is the worst option. You have even noted that villain is tight. He's opening 5x from mp and you'v called with a pretty weak hand.
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01-17-2018 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutejszy
postflop is self explenatory, you have the nuts, there is no wrong way of playing this hand (except for folding it at any point)
Hero doesn't have the nuts, they have a ridiculously good draw, although I'm not sure if it's a good enough draw to call a ~1.5x pot bet with.
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01-17-2018 , 04:57 PM
Fold pre. Flop is totally fine, you want folds but don't mind getting called. Without having run the numbers think you're ahead of KK here, you have 15 outs and he has basically no redraw.
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01-17-2018 , 05:27 PM
fold pre, especially since he's "very tight". There are really no other options.
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01-17-2018 , 05:30 PM
Wouldn't necessarily agree with fold pre, we are in position with the sort of hand that is really easy to play against villain's range and there's 20 times the PF raise to win, obv folding is fine but I'd take a look, flop seems fine as played
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01-17-2018 , 07:31 PM
Calling is better than 3-beting pre against tight opponents. They will jam too often.

When he bets 50 on the flop, maybe he is scared and tries to protect his hand?
It is still ok to raise all in, equity wise, but calling is fine too.

If I have a pair, an open ended straightdraw and a flush draw, I am calling the turn bet too
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01-18-2018 , 01:44 AM
yes fold pre.

on the flop you know by his bet he has aces or kings. so you decide if he will or may fold if you go all in. if yes then bet all in

if not then you must decide if you just call if you can get away if you miss if the next bet is too big, and if you can milk him for enough if you hit, and will he now check and give you a free card and pay it off if you hit. and if you play it that way do you have a chance to bluff him off.

lots of things go into a decision in a hand that can determine how the best way to play it.
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01-18-2018 , 05:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop
Hero doesn't have the nuts, they have a ridiculously good draw, although I'm not sure if it's a good enough draw to call a ~1.5x pot bet with.
hero has over 50% equity vs any concievable mp range, you are happy to call off 20x pot bet with this hand
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01-18-2018 , 10:39 AM
So MP never has a better flush draw in their range?
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01-18-2018 , 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfour
Wouldn't necessarily agree with fold pre, we are in position with the sort of hand that is really easy to play against villain's range and there's 20 times the PF raise to win, obv folding is fine but I'd take a look, flop seems fine as played
Villain has us covered, so we can't win his $300 stack but only the $15 + $225 we have. I am much more inclined to call that kind of hand preflop if I can play for 100BB instead of 80BB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop
So MP never has a better flush draw in their range?
He does, but we still have slightly over 50% against a range of JJ+,99,77,AcKc,AcQc,AcJc,KcQc

There's only a couple hands that hero performs really bad against and those are hands like JTcc and T8cc and both don't really match the preflop raise and flop overbet of a very tight player.

Just based on the population read on very tight 1/3 players, I think his range for the overbet on the flop is significantly weighted towards QQ+.

But based on the same population read, villain is never going to fold to the flop shove which makes the situation less profitable than some might think. I don't expect us to have more than 52-53% equity here on average which means we'll win ~$14/hand on average. (More than) Half of that might go towards rake. Which leaves us with the question: Do we really want to call preflop if we win 2BBs on average after flopping the world?
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01-18-2018 , 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
Just based on the population read on very tight 1/3 players, I think his range for the overbet on the flop is significantly weighted towards QQ+.

But based on the same population read, villain is never going to fold to the flop shove which makes the situation less profitable than some might think.
There is no need to assume that villain is psychic. If he doesn't fold when we flop a flushdraw, he will not fold when we flop 2pair either.
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01-18-2018 , 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces123123
There is no need to assume that villain is psychic. If he doesn't fold when we flop a flushdraw, he will not fold when we flop 2pair either.
That's what I said, villain isn't going to fold no matter what if he uses that bet size. The chances to flop two pair are ~2% though..

And just because he never folds if he overbets the flop doesn't mean he overbets every flop. There might be some he doesn't like because they contain overcard(s) or are as connected but more likely to hit hero. Especially in high rake live games, we have to stack villain a really high percentage of the time if we play a 80BB stack and pay 5BB preflop. Those additional 20BB we can win if we play a 100BB stack make a huge difference. Not as big as with a pocket pair where we play fit or fold and are a huge favorite if we hit, but still significantly.
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01-18-2018 , 05:02 PM
Only if you can bluff him when he has AK and misses can you even consider calling pre with this stack depth.
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01-18-2018 , 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovePocket10's
Lurked this site a few times, never posted.
I need some other views on a hand I played this weekend that, if I played incorrectly, how bad did I play it.

1-3NLH
I have 5c6c on the button.
MP makes it $15 to go. I'm the only caller.
Flop 4c9d7c, MP bets $50 (with about $300 left)
I jam about $225, he calls, turn 6d, river 2h.
He flips KhKd.

The player involved here was very tight, didn't play many hands, and folded and shook his head to almost any other raise.

How bad was it?
And this is why we always buy in for full and top up. 56s has great implied odd but when you are short its -EV. We jam flop for two reasons which are fold equity and realize our equity. In this situation we have close to no fold equity based upon everything OP said about villain but we do have more equity against villain. OESD + FD if we don't think villain has a bigger draw or redraw. 16 outs has about 58%+-

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
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01-18-2018 , 07:28 PM
Quote:
Need Closure
There is no closure in this game, but that's just the nature of the game, much like missing a three pointer in basketball on a windy day; this game will taunt you.

also, fold preflop. However, vs these two types of players I'll call:

lag preflop foldy postflop with betsize tells.

or

lag preflop spewbox postflop with or without betsize tells.

with a different gameplan vs each of the above.

without the gameplan I think folding is best preflop.
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01-18-2018 , 08:30 PM
You're 20:1 against hitting 2 pair or better on the flop. That's the maximum you can win. At this point in your poker journey, it is better to just fold these marginal situations pf.

As played, I'd fold the flop. He's got a big pair and is worried about the FD. Therefore, you're only going to get paid off on 6 cards. That's not enough outs to justify calling an overbet. A jam isn't horrible, but if you have to create a thread about it, you probably shouldn't have done it.

As you get better, you'll get to the stage where you won't need to hit the flop to win the hand some of the time. Then calling becomes a better idea.
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01-18-2018 , 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
As played, I'd fold the flop. He's got a big pair and is worried about the FD
Did you see he has a open ended straight flush draw? That hand is a favorite against big pairs so shoving has an EV > 0 = fold.
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01-18-2018 , 10:37 PM
If Villain has 150 or more BB calling pre is good,even if he shows you aces. Your hand is called the Aces Cracker as is has the best chance of cracking aces of any hand at 23%.

I'd do a big raise it has more fold equity than all-in. You straight is the only implied odds as the flush is too obvious,take that into consideration. You played it EV + if you were doing 60x buy or more. How many buy-in were you playing? That dictates your post flop play.
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01-18-2018 , 11:14 PM
poker is a game of capitalizing on small edges. so you dont play it pre flop and you push it post flop. it doesnt matter what your bankroll or buyins are as you cant afford to give up edges in poker very often and justify it. unless it wipes you out for all time .
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01-19-2018 , 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Zee
poker is a game of capitalizing on small edges. so you dont play it pre flop and you push it post flop. it doesnt matter what your bankroll or buyins are as you cant afford to give up edges in poker very often and justify it. unless it wipes you out for all time .
Live low stakes no limit poker is a lot of things, but certainly not a game of small edges? If you win $15/hour on average in a 1/2 game, that’s around 50BB/100.

OTOH, winning 2BB/100 in an online 1/2 game on PokerStars is a pretty good winrate. There you have small edges.
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01-19-2018 , 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop
Hero doesn't have the nuts, they have a ridiculously good draw, although I'm not sure if it's a good enough draw to call a ~1.5x pot bet with.
Given that he's 50/50 to win the hand, a bet of 10x the pot would still be correct.
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01-19-2018 , 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces123123
Calling is better than 3-beting pre against tight opponents. They will jam too often.

When he bets 50 on the flop, maybe he is scared and tries to protect his hand?
It is still ok to raise all in, equity wise, but calling is fine too.

If I have a pair, an open ended straightdraw and a flush draw, I am calling the turn bet too
It's true that you want to 3B less against nitty players, but it's also true that you can't play this kind of trash against them either, at least not with a flat heads up.
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01-19-2018 , 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
Did you see he has a open ended straight flush draw? That hand is a favorite against big pairs so shoving has an EV > 0 = fold.
I missed that. However being +EV on a play doesn't mean that it is +EV overall. Ideally, you want to be happy making any +EV play. That is your goal. However, this is the Beginners' forum and the poster made a thread about this hand. Many beginners allow a loss of a hand to destroy their discipline. They end up losing far more in future hands because they go on tilt. That can outweigh the small amount of equity that you have in this situation.

That said, I was wrong to say to fold. However, it would be good to leave the table for a while if you do lose to control your tilt.
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