Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Beginners Questions Poker beginner ? Ask your (possibly) naive question here and our community will attempt to help you.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-17-2017, 08:49 AM   #1
peddy.jr.85
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 60
Nash Equilibrium

Nash Equilibrium is game theory in general correct? Where is somewhere I can study it as it relates to poker specifically?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
peddy.jr.85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 09:13 AM   #2
robert_utk
adept
 
robert_utk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 947
Re: Nash Equilibrium

Nash Equilibrium is the math of negotiation. It applies anywhere humans negotiate with incomplete information. Nash is how stock options are valued.

Nash is not game theory, but a lot of game theory involves Nash.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
robert_utk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 09:14 AM   #3
peddy.jr.85
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 60
Re: Nash Equilibrium

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
Nash Equilibrium is the math of negotiation. It applies anywhere humans negotiate with incomplete information. Nash is how stock options are valued.

Nash is not game theory, but a lot of game theory involves Nash.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks. In that case, where is a good starting point for studying GTO play?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
peddy.jr.85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 09:15 AM   #4
robert_utk
adept
 
robert_utk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 947
Nash Equilibrium

This forum is good. Also Miller is a leading author on it, I would say.

And Janda

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
robert_utk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 10:49 AM   #5
SpewingIsMyMove
old hand
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,552
Re: Nash Equilibrium

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
Nash Equilibrium is the math of negotiation. It applies anywhere humans negotiate with incomplete information. Nash is how stock options are valued.

Nash is not game theory, but a lot of game theory involves Nash.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is not accurate. Nash Equilibrium is the point of equilibrium whereby neither player can gain an advantage by unilaterally changing their strategy. It is a key concept in game theory. Nash was one of the main pioneers of Game theory.

You do not require a game of incomplete information to have a nash equilibrium.
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 11:04 AM   #6
robert_utk
adept
 
robert_utk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 947
Re: Nash Equilibrium

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
This is not accurate. Nash Equilibrium is the point of equilibrium whereby neither player can gain an advantage by unilaterally changing their strategy. It is a key concept in game theory. Nash was one of the main pioneers of Game theory.



You do not require a game of incomplete information to have a nash equilibrium.


You are correct, i stand corrected.

The solutions that just require "the correct play" and do not have incomplete information are Nash, but do not involve the math that won him the Nobel.

So, every optimal equilibrium is of course Nash, but many optimal solutions in toy games can be solved with other methods.

If we are to call every equilibrium Nash, then so be it, I was just referring to the broader picture.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
robert_utk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 12:59 PM   #7
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 7,399
Re: Nash Equilibrium

When rational players act in their best interests (in poker, this roughly means "maximise profits by playing unexploitably"), an equilibrium is reached.
The most obvious examples are in push-fold situations in HUSNGs. There is an optimal range for the SB to jam (because he'll have a mix of hand equity and fold equity that means everything in his jamming range makes money), and there is an optimal range for the BB to call with (that has enough equity to at least break even against the SB's optimal shoving range).
Indeed, it's possible for the SB to tell the BB exactly which hands he's shoving (or literally show him the push chart), and the BB cannot do better than whatever the "Nash" charts tell him to do. That's why it's an equilibrium. Deviating from optimal play will lose money.

See: http://www.holdemresources.net/hune

Note that real life poker players are not rational. Bad players in particular play bad hands, and call too often, or bluff too often, or slowplay too often, or fold too often etc. By deviating from the "Nash equilibrium", you can make more money against irrational players by exploiting their mistaken tendencies. e.g. If the BB is such a nit that he folds every hand except AA, you can open jam 100bb with 100% of hands, and you'll beat him for about 57bb/100, because he folds too often. (You'll make so much from stealing his blinds, that you could donate a full stack every time he has aces, and you'll still destroy him in the long run). The strategy of "only playing aces" is sub-optimal. It's not part of the equilibrium solution, because it's very easy to beat it.
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 02:24 PM   #8
SpewingIsMyMove
old hand
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,552
Re: Nash Equilibrium

Arty touches on a key point. GTO plays like using NE push\fold charts are only optimal when playing against 'rational' players, in other words players who know the same as you, think the same as you, and will be making the same optimal decisions. In any but the highest levels, this is simply not the case. It is usually much more profitable to play unbalanced, exploitive strategies against players who have significant leaks.

A Nash Equilibrium exists when neither player can improve by unilaterally changing their strategy. if one of the players is not playing the optimal strategy, than using GTO tactics is not the optimal play.
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 02:29 PM   #9
peddy.jr.85
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 60
Re: Nash Equilibrium

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
Arty touches on a key point. GTO plays like using NE push\fold charts are only optimal when playing against 'rational' players, in other words players who know the same as you, think the same as you, and will be making the same optimal decisions. In any but the highest levels, this is simply not the case. It is usually much more profitable to play unbalanced, exploitive strategies against players who have significant leaks.



A Nash Equilibrium exists when neither player can improve by unilaterally changing their strategy. if one of the players is not playing the optimal strategy, than using GTO tactics is not the optimal play.


So the stakes I play on WPN, $3-$11 deep stacked, long leveled MTTs, probably continue the way I play? At what stakes do you estimate that players begin to shift to GTO? Can GTO be exploited by playing in a more exploitative fashion by HUD usage etc?
peddy.jr.85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 02:42 PM   #10
SpewingIsMyMove
old hand
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,552
Re: Nash Equilibrium

Quote:
Originally Posted by peddy.jr.85 View Post
So the stakes I play on WPN, $3-$11 deep stacked, long leveled MTTs, probably continue the way I play? At what stakes do you estimate that players begin to shift to GTO? Can GTO be exploited by playing in a more exploitative fashion by HUD usage etc?
I am not sure when GTO would be appropriate, but I can tell you it is not optimal for those low and micro stake tournaments. There are so many bad, unbalanced players, you need to exploit them. the trick is knowing exactly what leaks they have, and how best to exploit them.
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 02:57 PM   #11
robert_utk
adept
 
robert_utk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 947
Re: Nash Equilibrium

Simply understanding that a 0EV (or tiny +EV) play in a tournament is often a better fold than a bluff is huge in ssmtt. I suggest OP to study cEV and ICM plus the situational small ball and small bluff strategy to get into the money and beyond.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
robert_utk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 05:14 PM   #12
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ArtyMcFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 7,399
Re: Nash Equilibrium

Quote:
Originally Posted by peddy.jr.85 View Post
Can GTO be exploited by playing in a more exploitative fashion by HUD usage etc?
You can't exploit GTO play, by definition. It's an unbeatable strategy. You can use your HUD to help you beat players who are far from GTO. e.g. If the HUD says someone folds to 3-bets too often, you should 3-bet light more often. If someone never bluffs the river then you should never call the river with a bluff-catcher.
Merely by playing fairly solidly, and by not getting out of line, you'll crush the worst players, and do pretty well against strong players. If the field was made up of GTO bots, or the best high stakes players, however, the best play is to unreg pre. You make money from other people's mistakes. If they don't make mistakes, don't play against them!
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online