Im not understanding how I can play differently to better these stats. I dont know what is "considered good". I play every single pot independently and make the play that I think is best for that situation. When I look at W$WSF 35%, WtSD 22% and W$SD 54% I would say that these are good but I guess Im not understanding the theory behind it.

I apologize if I have taken the defensive in my posts Im just protective of my game I guess. I think I have a very solid game and you threw me off guard. You have written enough responses that I believe you are trying to help so Im sorry if we got off to a bad start.

The last 6 months or so I have had a "f**k the book" attitude. I realized that I will only go so far playing by the book and started playing my own game to see where it would take me. PokerStars was the test when I got that 5$ and Im happy with what Ive got so far. I asked it before but am still curious to know if my stats may just be that way because thats my game and therefore not bad. If I change something here it throws off something there I guess is what Im saying/asking.

Right now I have a 13.5bb/100 which I know is high (maybe) so do I really need to change things in my game? I mean at higher levels should I really be expecting +15bb/100 if these areas were improved on? Im guessing not. I think with my experience the thing that will benefit me most is to just keep playing. Maybe posting my stats was good cause its got me thinking.

I think you're just running abit hot and as most new players (correct me if I'm wrong and you're not a new player) starts overrating their game and thinks they master it completely.

These are micro's, and 13BB/100 is pretty good, definitely not sustainable at higher levels, but maybe at the uber micro's.

I ran at 25BB/100 when I played through 25NL and talked about myself as being the best ever, when I started playing 50NL things changed and I realized I wasn't as good a player as I thought I was. And this was only like 3 months ago.

Just take all the advices you get, if you get up to playing 100NL, can show us 50k hands with 10+BB/100 by playing like you do now, then I will believe you and probably beg you to coach me.

Until then, don't be to arrogant.

And 14k hands is not a big sample size tho. Having a bad day on NL10 or NL25 will change your winrate fast. I dont want to discurage you ofc. not since I am trying to break micros to. And my stats are like that for example:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_RRaGE2Cx5QU/...ts+overall.jpg

I know my VPIP from SB at NL10 is horrible but there was some 600 hands at the beggining when I played stupid, was not a member of stoxpoker so it changed my VPIP from SB a lot. Other stats I found and others to, good but correct me if I am wrong.

A W$WSF >40% is considered good for small stakes or lower. This thread should explain it a little better.

You can play better by being far more aggressive and calling down lighter in spots where you're likely to be ahead.

It's fine, don't worry about it. I probably wouldn't like to have my game bashed if I didn't ask for it.

Your stats are that way because that's your game. Doesn't necessarily make your game bad just indicates that you have leaks.

The stars micro tables are 200BBs deep, so you're playing 200BBs deep against people who think they're playing blackjack. There was a spell where I was winning at 15PTBB/100 over about 10-12K hands at 50nl and 100nl. Doesn't mean I didn't have leaks or parts of my game that needed improving.

You need to be stealing the blinds more, 30% is the minimum you should have.

You seem to be the opposite in that you may be calling down too much. It's hard to tell because your game is kinda all over the place at the moment, very different numbers across the different limits. That just means you're probably changing and improving your game at the moment. When they settle down it'll be a lot easier to see what needs improving.

Need a wee bit more aggression imo

Been there before..

Im gonna try like hell!

I apologize if my confidence comes off as arrogance.

dude lay off, stop being an (_o_)

You post your stats and experienced people are trying to help you. If someone is using a HUD and are following your stats they are going to be able to manipulate you. At the end of the day your PFR is just to low... your clearly passive but have hit a few good hands and posting a couple of hands to back up your argument that your strong is just horse*****.

jeez dude, learn to take some constructive criticism

wow..

just cant believe someone can be so unappreciative of strangers trying to be nice

Just like they have been?

too low... go on... to what?... win?

Yes, clearly Im passive.

Yes, only hit a few good hands.

Yes, I posted a couple of hands to back up my arguement..
(that your strong is just horse*****.) Now thats just funny.

Look, Im sorry if you believe Im not appreciative and all but to posters like you, no, Im not. If you actually read what I was trying to get at you would see that I happen to be very selective about the advise that I get. Just because someone tells me I need to be doing something doesnt mean I automatically jump to change my game. Forgive me for wanting some validation! Since most everyone is a losing player I suggest we all be a little bit picky about who is telling us how to play! If you actually read what RedJoker and I discussed you would see that I am willing to believe my game will benefit from improving the areas he suggests. I may have approached him in the same way as I approach you but he proves to be genuine so unless you can tell me why it is that you are good enough to listen to, dont post me sh*t.

Very nice thread RJ! Thank you for sharing it with me. The picture is becoming more clear to me now but I still have a couple of arguements. I ask that you set aside the fact that I have shown micro stakes stats and consider that I may be able to comprehend what it takes to beat tougher games. I say this because I feel I am solid enough to bring the game that I have now but feel it necessary to fix these "leaks" if they truely are leaks.

In general, my game has been learned through trial and error so I play the game trusting the instincts that I have. Instincts are what basically run my game. This is where I am having a problem with the whole "stats issue". When confronted with the theory that I should be more aggressive post (and pre) I ask why? Why be more aggressive when playing the way I do allows me to win at the *rate I do? What if its because Im not so "visually" aggressive that allows me to be more aggressive in other areas that in turn gets me the money..?

Like you said in your thread regarding the PokerEV graphs, different players make their money in different areas of the game. I dont like to be targeted as a loose player. I like to play solid poker but with enough out of line plays that I can be considered not honest.

I have no problem bluffing off my stack in a pot I thought I had a decent chance to win and/or making plays that might be considered risky if I think they will work. I am able to see the chips as tools and not money and I think these are attributes for a high stakes player.

I have recently funded my account so that I am rolled for 100NL and I am going to play about 5k or so more hands at 25NL and an occasional shot at 50NL to see how things go. Im not worried about getting beat up on for a few sessions, Im sure the raise in stakes will altar my play for a short while. Im just curious now as to if my "leaks" will halt me or if my assumption that they arent leaks will hold up.

I guess Im the only one that can prove this so as soon as I tie up some loose ends (like this one) Im gonna find out. The fact that it is perceived that I need to be more aggro just baffles me. Because I think the times I am passive are the times that are throwing my stats off, so you think thats how I play. But its really not. This may be good. Oh well we'll see.

*And everyone stop telling me "Its only 14,000 hands"! These arent the only hands Ive ever played, just the PStars hands. Ive had PT less than 6 months and finally got to "see" how much rake I got raped on playing FullTilt! Opened up a Stars acct. but before I deposited $ they gave me 5$ so I wanted to see where I could go with it.

Im out!

Well it's o.k. that you're making one or two big bluffs every now and then but it would be so much better if you tried to win *every* pot you played. A 35% W$WSF is extremely low.

There's three reasons yours is so low:
1) you're not raising enough pots preflop, by raising we have the initiative on the flop, when our opponents miss they'll fold the vast majority of the time. If they call we can very easily represent a big hand on future streets if we want to.

When you limp you let more hands come into the pot cheaply and give hands which should never have seen the flop a free chance to hit and the opportunity to bluff you off what to them looks like (and usually is) your weak hand.

You also may get raised, decide to call and go to the flop without initiative and with a very defined hand range.

2) you're not calling enough when you're likely to be ahead. Let's say for example that MP (a TAG) opens and you call on the btn with 88. The flop comes down J63 and he bets into you. Well this is a spot where I'm never folding to just one bet; we have position, we likely have the best hand and if he checks the turn we can probably get our hand to showdown. He's probably cbetting 100% of his opening range and unless we have a read that he fires multiple barrels it's unlikely he's going to continue without a better hand. If we do have a read that he fires barrels we can happily call him down and try to induce bluffs.

Maybe that example is a little too "standard" but there are other spots where you can profitably call and try to get to showdown.

3) you're not aggressive enough. You need to be looking for a lot of value with TP hands against the fish. That will often mean betting all three streets for value. Betting the river with MP when the turn checks through, etc. Limped pots are another great spot to pick up dead money and it goes back to what I said in part 1. Nobody ever has a big hand in a limped pot and nobody ever wants the 3BBs or 4BBs that are out there. So many times I've been in the BB or SB and somebody has limped in. Any sort of dry texture (like 449 or Q72) I'm firing out with 100% of my hands (unless there's a load of people in the pot).

That doesn't mean that you couldn't improve faster or win more with a little help.

Yes; but the very best players, the ones who crush high stakes and nosebleed stake games all have styles that are built on a foundation of aggression.

Even if you do win you may still have leaks and could potentially have won even more. We all have leaks in our game, even the very top players.

Best of luck with moving up. As long as you keep questioning everything you read (even what I tell you ) and thinking about the game you'll do fine.

This sticks out to me as one I am faulty of. Sometimes I have a hard time 3 barrelling thin. I do "see" the situations usually but fail to act. (usually I will check the river if called twice and Im marginal.)


This is gonna take a while for me to decifer. But I believe you. I see exactly why you say what you do, I just thought that this is how I played my game. I think for the most part it is, but there's a lot more I can be doing.

After reading this just once it has given me an insight to how my game can be better. I definetely have some thinking to do. I thank you for taking the time to help me even after our start. Your stubbornness to show me the way has conquered my stubbornness that didnt want to see the way.

If you never value bet the river and get called by a better hand, you're not value betting thin enough.

In future if you think a spot is kinda marginal then post the hh in the relevant forum and see what people think. And bet anyway .

You're welcome. I think I just like to argue a lot but stubbornness sounds better so we'll go with that.

I would like to thank Red Joker and BigErf for this, even if it wasn't exactly what Big planned when his wrote the first few posts in the thread.

I have learnt a massive amount from this discussion. It is these threads where people disagree but argue their cases strongly, with well reasoned arguments, that are the most valuable lessons here. I gain nothing from a thread where a dozen people parrot the same "be more aggressive" mantra.

How sad that some chose to give BigErf a hard time even when the discussion was in full flow, as they can't have bothered to read more than two or three of BigErf's replies. For if we discourage those who question perceived wisdom the rest of us won't get the chance to learn what makes the perceived wisdom work.

So I'm sorry, I know this doesn't add any real value to the thread, but I did think Big deserved at least one 'thank you' to balance out the jerks.

uv only played 10k hands... :|

RedJoker if you are out there I have a question for you. I am looking at the graph and stats for Fabian that you showed in your thread and I see his VPIP & PFR were 26/21. After reading quite a few articles I feel a little more educated and I see what the point is about the correlation between the two.

This will probably be easiest to adjust in my game simply because I can control which hands I start with. Not knowing yet how it will effect my game Im trying to foresee what might happen. I figure I will not play as many hands as I have been because at this point I wont be comfortable raising all of the hands that I have been playing. So my stats may be something like 20/17 or even 18/15...? My goal is to play as many profitable situations as aggressively as I can but I see this taking some time to fully develope. So it got me thinking about something else.

In your opinion, if I am a good postflop player, am I better off playing 24/15 (like I am now) or 18/15? I see how 26/21 can make you so dangerous to play against but I also know that it takes a very experienced player to pull it off. Im realizing that for me to get my numbers closer I am going to probably lower my VPIP at first. And I dont know if I want to do that. Do you think Im really just throwing money away that 9% of the time I limp compared to what would be 3%?

I thought about all of this after reading about how the stats themselves dont matter, its that they are close together which is showing that you are taking the initiative. i.e. 26/21 or 18/15. And I started wondering if I still might be better off playing 24/15 rather than 18/15. I dont know. Im trying to understand what I think is best and I think hearing your opinion might help.

If you get the time I would like to hear what you think.
Thank you, Erf

One more thing relating to my previous post. I have come up with why these numbers are so far apart (24/15). Its because I call a lot of raises when Im in position. Like Ive said, I never open limp and I usually raise any hand I'll play if there are limpers but I do quite frequently call a raise in position. Which I never thought was bad. As long as I plan on using my position as an added advantage.

I think the reason I wont raise a lot is because of the stakes Im at. I know fold equity is accounted in to a re-raise and at lower stakes that just goes out the window. That may be something that works its self out as I get higher. I actually think the stakes may get easier as i go higher. As far as folding to my re-raises is concerned.

My cold call PFR% is 2.69 OTB and 1.4% in CO.

If you have a big edge postflop you're far better off playing 24/15 then you are playing 18/15. That said, you'd be even more better off playing 24/20 then you would playing 24/15.

Your optimal preflop stats depend on your ability postflop. So if you can play 24/20 profitably then that's optimal. If you're inexperienced, or playing against tough opponents where your edge isn't that huge or your multitabling like 12 tables then 18/15 is closer to optimal. Here's the thing though, 24/15 is never, ever, ever optimal.

There's so many advantages to playing a LAG style, you get to play more pots with the fish, you have a far more aggressive image, etc. You also improve at a far, far higher rate, because if you don't, you go busto. Like an 18/15 never has to worry what the most profitable way to play 86 on a K63 two tone flop is, how each action effects their ranges and how their opponents are going to react to different lines, etc., etc. A LAG is in that type of situation every couple hundred hands.

I'm never upset if a 18/15 is sitting at my table, they're just not playing enough hands to cause me trouble. A table with 4 18/15s and one fish is like the most perfect table in the world.

Thats funny. Point well taken, thank you.

I'd say the large gap is caused by having a wide completing range in the SB and overlimping too much. Having a wide range to complete in the SB (i.e. there's a limper(s) and you just call with a SC, suited gapper or two gapper, off suit connector of gapper, low PP, two high cards you're not comfortable raising OOP, etc.) is fine provided you can play well postflop OOP and you take lots of stabs on dry boards. If there's no limpers you should either be raising or folding in almost all cases.

However, unless the limper is a short stack, overlimping is almost never the best play. It might be a profitable play but raising is still better.

As for a cold calling range, it depends on style, your willingness to be aggressive and bluff a lot of flops, etc. I was having an interesting conversation at the end of this thread about this topic which you might find useful.

EDIT:
This is fairly tight and it's not what's causing the gap. Mine are 5.05% otb and 2.83% in CO fwiw.

Could someone please tell me how to set graphs in PT to display $ won with total hands played? Just like many of the one's displayed in this thread. I can't seem to figure it out. Don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Thanks in advance

Class is in session!
Once again, thank you for taking the time. I'll try and stop picking your brain for a while.