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Old 06-18-2017, 04:43 PM   #1
The2PairKid
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This is my first post ever.

So, I guess this is more of a brag than anything but advice on how to improve my play is obviously welcome hence why I am posting.

I play hold'em quite often. Like 3 times a week if not more. Mostly bar games however I do occasionally play in the card rooms and can hold my own.

This was a bar game so you get a lot of people who are there to either get drunk or just have fun. You also get a lot of regulars who play the same game every week. It was a tournament. With 15k starting stack and 20 minutes blinds and one rebuy.

Heres my read on the villain. I have never played with hime before. He was a somewhat tight player but not so tight that he was afraid to call a raise with face cards. He however would only come into the pot with atleast one facecard (or atleast that was my best read judging by what I had seen him show) he had no concept of position because he would often limp UTG. He also kept talking to his friends about how he wanted to go to the card room down the street after this game and play "real poker" as if he had to justify to everyone that he was a good player. He complained everytime he lost a hand.

So, heres the hand. Blinds are 2/4 and I'm on the button villain is in BB. I raise 3X (12) with 9/9, SB folds and he re-pops me but only min (24). I call. Flop brings 7,10,J. He leads out and bets another 12. I peg it as a C-bet and call. Turn brings 4. He checks I check behind. River brings K. So now there are 3 over card on the board, a possible straight, and a possible flush. Villain bets HUGE. Like 3/4 of his stack. Making the call would just about cripple me. I glance over at him. He re-checkes his hole cards, and than stairs directly at the board not moving at all. Solid as a rock. I tank for a minute. Between the double-checking of his hole cards, staring at the board not the pot, lack of movement or speach. I convinced myself he has multiple symptoms of a bluff and make the call. He says "what you got" I say "you bet" and wait for him to show his cards. He showes an A and he says "good call" in a condescending tone and mucks. I show the 9's. Afterwards he says "that was a brave call with a possible straight and flush" implying I was a donk for making the call. He asks "if I pushed would you still have called" I just shrugged and said "Have you ever read Mike Caro" he looks at me all confused and says "no".
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:53 PM   #2
fidstar-poker
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Re: This is my first post ever.

I'm moving this to the beginners area. You will get better answers there.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:59 PM   #3
ArtyMcFly
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Re: This is my first post ever.

Absent #WhiteMagic, you should fold the river (or even the flop). You've got many better bluff-catchers (and a bunch of pure value hands) that would be calls before 99 is. In the long run, making this call would be extremely costly, because you basically beat nothing but ace high (A9s, A8s, A5s).
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:17 PM   #4
the_glaive
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Re: This is my first post ever.

Yeah, this is one of those hero calls that don't really make much sense. I mean most of the time it will be a losing call against this player, so why bother?
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:38 PM   #5
The2PairKid
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Re: This is my first post ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_glaive View Post
Yeah, this is one of those hero calls that don't really make much sense. I mean most of the time it will be a losing call against this player, so why bother?
Well, I feel that's the point of the story. I realized that virtually everything beats me. I don't think I made the call because I fell in love with my 9s and couldn't let them go. I feel I made the call because I knew in my gut I was right. There were several other factors I took into consideration as well. The Villain was a loud and obnoxious guy. So when he all of a sudden had nothing to say after making his river bet it kind of makes me think he subconsciously didn't want to draw attention to him self. Also his oversized bet practically screamed to me "just go away". Yes, absolutely he maybe could have paired the board and was afraid of a flush or straight as well. But I think had he hit a strong flush or broadway I think he would have been a little more relaxed. If I was wrong I still had a rebuy.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:49 PM   #6
The2PairKid
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Re: This is my first post ever.

This is not a call I would normally make.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:52 PM   #7
The2PairKid
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Re: This is my first post ever.

Aren't all hero calls calls that would most likely be a losing call?
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:30 PM   #8
Dream Crusher
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Re: This is my first post ever.

I have a feeling this isn't actually your first post, but good job, nice hand, and all the other congratulatory recognition I can give you. Why in the hell would you bring up Mike Caro at the poker table though? If he had asked me why I called I would have just said that it's hard to make a pair.
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:04 PM   #9
the_glaive
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Re: This is my first post ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The2PairKid View Post
Aren't all hero calls calls that would most likely be a losing call?
No, they are calls which you make where you have a mediocre hand and call a big bet that makes the call prohibitive, but where you have information that allows you to take that line profitably.

To be fair, now that you have explained your physical read on the player, it does make sense. So well done, I guess.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:54 PM   #10
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: This is my first post ever.

1. You are missing some key information from your hand description (specifically, how large was the river bet, how large were effective stacks versus the blinds, etc).
2. You are allowing your dislike and contempt for a player color your judgement
3. Your reads do not 100% add up. You state that he is a player that is newish or amatuerish (doesn't play position well), and tightish, yet you put him on a big bluff. You discount him checking his cards (usually a tell for verifying suitedness when a flush card hits). You put a lot of stock in him showing fear or stress reactions, but these are unreliable in high pressure situations.

Obviously, i wasn't there, so i can't really judge his physical tells. In my experience, though, physical tells are overrated and can lead you into a lot of trouble. A lot of people have read Caro, Navarro, and Elwood, and throw out false tells without even thinking about it.

If you came here to ask for opinions, I think that your hero call here is going to burn you more often than it helps you. it worked in this case. The board positively slams into his range.

Depending on the size of the river bet relative to the pot, and I am pretty sure I fold this, even with the tells you are describing.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:49 AM   #11
redlineftw
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Re: This is my first post ever.

this was originally in BBV? hahaha

You are pretty much never good here, villain played it pretty bad though, he should have bet turn and shoved river.. See if you are going to be hero calling that..
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:32 AM   #12
Fatboy54
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Re: This is my first post ever.

Quote:
So, I guess this is a brag
fyp

Welcome to the forum, GL
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:13 AM   #13
fidstar-poker
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Re: This is my first post ever.

When someone does things like limp UTG in pub poker you need to assume he has a great hand pre when he 3 bets. I probably fold flop, but never calling a big bet on the river in pub poker. Especially as you have called him tight.

Also never talk at the table about what you have studied.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:36 PM   #14
The2PairKid
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Re: This is my first post ever.

Okay, okay. Fare enough. I see your guy's point about this being a losing play in the long run. I'm not even going to debate it because you guys are right... I absolutely agree with you that the flop fell directly into his range and when he 3bet me pre it should have tiped me off that he may have had a big hand. A few things thow. Like I said in my original post on, the flop he had just repeated his bet of 24. I felt that to be a little bit of a funny bet. I pegged it as a Cbet. If it were me in his position I think it I had hit top pair top kicker I probably would have bet pot and tryed to end the hand right then and there (but I guess that a common mistake players make. Assuming the other player plays like you). I also think had he bet the turn I wouldn't have been around on the river for me to make the call. But the cbet on the flop and the check on the turn said to me "miss, miss". As for calling the huge river bet you guys are right it is a losing call in the long run. I do however feel that my physical read on him being weak was spot on. I like to trust my reads and dont like to second guess them. I've made hero calls in the past and have been right most of the time (not allways). I don't think this guy was putting off fals tells and the tells he was putting off were so basic that I feel it was a soft read. You guys are also right that I shouldn't have mentioned Caro but thats why I did. Because the book is like 20 years old. It was my little way snarky way of saying to him "the tells I got off of you were so basic they were published 20 years ago" I don't think this guy studies poker enough to read a book never the less go back and look it up. I may have given other players information.
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Old 06-19-2017, 02:16 PM   #15
fidstar-poker
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Re: This is my first post ever.

So much of what he 3 bet pre with and then checked on the turn, got there on the river (AQ and AK).

Also I don't think bet sizing should be a huge read in pub poker. Basically no one knows how much is in the pot and often just throw out chips.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:11 PM   #16
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: This is my first post ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The2PairKid View Post
Okay, okay. Fare enough. I see your guy's point about this being a losing play in the long run. I'm not even going to debate it because you guys are right... I absolutely agree with you that the flop fell directly into his range and when he 3bet me pre it should have tiped me off that he may have had a big hand. A few things thow. Like I said in my original post on, the flop he had just repeated his bet of 24. I felt that to be a little bit of a funny bet. I pegged it as a Cbet. If it were me in his position I think it I had hit top pair top kicker I probably would have bet pot and tryed to end the hand right then and there (but I guess that a common mistake players make. Assuming the other player plays like you). I also think had he bet the turn I wouldn't have been around on the river for me to make the call. But the cbet on the flop and the check on the turn said to me "miss, miss". As for calling the huge river bet you guys are right it is a losing call in the long run. I do however feel that my physical read on him being weak was spot on. I like to trust my reads and dont like to second guess them. I've made hero calls in the past and have been right most of the time (not allways). I don't think this guy was putting off fals tells and the tells he was putting off were so basic that I feel it was a soft read. You guys are also right that I shouldn't have mentioned Caro but thats why I did. Because the book is like 20 years old. It was my little way snarky way of saying to him "the tells I got off of you were so basic they were published 20 years ago" I don't think this guy studies poker enough to read a book never the less go back and look it up. I may have given other players information.
Did he bet 12 or 24 on the flop? A bet of 12 is suspiciously like a value bet (or a very timid c-bet). A bet of 24 is a 1/2 psb, and could represent anything on that dripping wet board. Bet of 24 on the flop, a check on the turn, I definitely do not eliminate any draws from his range, and a ton of his drawing hands (Q9, KQ, AQ, Axss, QTss) get there.

Also, I would focus more on your fundamental awareness of the game, rather than trying to make tricky reads to make hero calls. In describing this hand, you have omitted important information (effective stacks, proximity to the bubble, size of the river bet, your table image, etc). You don't seem terribly aware of how the hand played out (you described the flop bet as 12, then as 24....a small mistake, but attention to detail matters in poker).

You made your read on this player based on about an hour to an a hour and a half lifetime of play together (maybe 40 hands). I would say the hero call was more lucky than good.
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:59 AM   #17
Evoxgsr96
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Re: This is my first post ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Crusher View Post
I have a feeling this isn't actually your first post, but good job, nice hand, and all the other congratulatory recognition I can give you. Why in the hell would you bring up Mike Caro at the poker table though? If he had asked me why I called I would have just said that it's hard to make a pair.
Thanks for this lul

Next time someone asks me a question at the live table im gonna be a smart ass from now on
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