Hi,

After a Skype conversation about grinding MTT's online with a friend, I started thinking how bullshit grinding MTT's are.

Like how many do we actually have to play to average our value out to a non randomised outcome? it almost feels like the number is infinite?

I think of all the people I know/seen Grind MTT's for a living, and I look at each time the majority of these people have either:

• moved up stakes
• moved to a different game Cash/PLO

When this outcome happens with each of these people, its happened because of Binking/running good in high equity spots.

It rarely happens because they slowly grind a small profit, it feels like MTT grinding is just bullshit.

I looked at it like this:

You answer a question.
You either get it correct/incorrect.
Now after answering the question, A 100 sided dice is rolled.
If you answered it correctly, 60 numbers means you win.
If you answered it incorrectly, 40 numbers mean you win.
Seems like, there is an absurd amount of randomly determined outcomes, that reflect your winnings.

I spoke to my friends about my point of view, the ones that moved on from MTT's and now Grind Zoom/Cash, had a similar opinion, and say thats what put them off continuing to grind MTT's.

And thats why ive posted on here, I want to know if this is just incorrect? I want to know if im looking for excuses or maybe my whole viewpoint is completely flawed? dont be afraid to tell me im completely wrong.

'Bout time someone brought up the tough subject of whether or not grinding MTTs is viable and sustainable.

Grunching, but, judging by the subject line and the first sentence, probably belongs in MTTc. Or, in 2006.

Ok, I've read it. It belongs in BQ.

Dude, well done for working out that a 60-40 is like "rolling a 100-sided die". This is an insight we can all learn from.

What happens if we could roll it twice? Answers on a postcard.

In today’s online environment, you need to put in a massive amount of volume to iron out the variance of tougher games and being cheated by bots/ghosting/software cheats etc

Even then you could be very good but run very bad and not show much profit

So at that point it becomes a question not of “is it bullshit?” but “is it worth it?”
I don’t know the answer to that question sorry

Sucks because imo MTTs are the most glorious form of poker. More like a sport and less like hustling. When the online MTT action was fair, fun, US facing, large guarantees up top and full of average players those were the best times

Check this out, though. And this is gonna make your head explode.

You can cancel out the zeros, and and reduce it down a bit more, and it becomes 3/2.

So, you, know, it's like rolling a regular die.

Crazy, huh?

This is why many pros swap pieces of each other -- it smooths out the variance.

100-sided dice. I got it. You take 1-60, I'll take 61-100. Might have a fencepost error there somewhere, but whatever, I don't care. 100 sided dice for a 60-40 lol.

Maybe we just take 1-3, 4-6 on a regular die? Just a thought.

I now what OP meant. He just gave a horrible example lol.

When ripping someone else out, its best to not be totally wrong yourself .

is lex Veldhuis even a winning player?

Good point. Sh/t. Been a long couple of days. Good thing I'm in all the 530s tomorrow haha.

At least in cash, only the winner pays the rake.

If you run hot and win a big prize and have to pay tax on it, can you spread it out over multiple years? If not, I don't know how/why anyone(except the best of the best) does it.

I was surprised that 100th place in the ME only paid ~60K. I would think poker players wouldn't want 10 million at the top and rather it be spread way more.

Maybe you are wrong. Maybe you are right.

My theory is: online rankings keep them playing MTTs.

So they can measure their giant ego.

This is a very good question. Is anyone genuinely interested in figuring it out or just want to humilliate the OP?

i think of mtts like they are little pieces of drugs. say no to mtts.

MTTs are great for the game. In October of last year I turned a $100 deposit on WSOP in to over $4000 in 12 days on an MTT heater 1st placing several micro tourneys in that span of days. I’m not an MTT grinder and don’t think grinding MTTs is the best way to play poker for a living either part time or full time due to variance but they offer something no cash game can and that’s a big score. I’ve first a few others since but haven’t went on a run that good but it definitely showed me the potential for poker and got me locked in.

Because of that big score potential it attracts bad players that good players can benefit from and makes poker popular. The bad players that tourneys attract spill over to the cash tables and provide fish for the ecosystem as well. That makes them not only necessary but a good thing.

It’s about the big picture.

I think this question boils down to: Do MTTs have insane variance?

Yes.

Whether or not you want to try to grind enough of them to smooth it out is your own decision. They are certainly profitable.

Mtts=Pain Cash=Gain

SNGs are a middle ground where tournament skills can be used but the variance is lower due to smaller tournaments.

This is true and might be a good transition once you are feeling good about your MTT game and want to multitable a bit more.