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KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn.

01-21-2018 , 09:14 PM
Recent hand played at a local 1-2 NL game.

I am sitting on the button and find KsKh my stack is about 350$
MP raises to 15$, CO calls and I 3bet to 45$. SB tanks for a while and folds. MP raiser calls and CO folds. MP raiser started hand with roughly same stack size (around 370$)

Pot is 105$ and flop comes 6c5h9h

Villain checks, i C bet 50$. Villain min check raises to 100$. I quickly call.. pot is roughly 300$ and the turn is 3h. V shoves his remaining 225$.....

What do you do?? Results follow later...
V is not a familiar player to me, not much info, does limp into pots and have noticed tendency to make min re raises. Also noticed varying raise sizes preflop, ranging from 7-15$...
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-21-2018 , 09:30 PM
What is your table image in villain's eyes?

Have you noticed a correlation between PF raise sizing and hand strength?

Villain probably has a capped range so you are either up against:
pocket pair 88, TT-QQ probably with a heart
set - mostly 999
flush
semi-bluff
out right bluff

I'm calling and expect to be good a small/medium percentage of the time....with outs against some of range.

Homework for you: How often do I need to be good in order for this call to be +EV?
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-22-2018 , 12:17 AM
You may be focusing too much on the fact that his check-raise size was the minimum when you maybe should be focusing on the fact that he check-raised at all. What kind of hands does he raise with? When he has raised, does he only do it with strong made hands? Does he sometimes raise with weaker hands like top pair? Does he ever raise with draws? Min-raise from some players means a strong made hand. Min-raise from other players means a weaker hand with outs against yours that he would fold to a re-raise.

In a hand like this, where if you call, one of you will have less than a pot-sized bet left, you should be aware that your opponent is very likely to shove and that you will often be shoving if he checks. Many weak players will call the raise, then appear shocked that they are facing a big turn bet. You said that you quickly called the flop raise and maybe you should have taken a moment to consider whether you were calling the turn and if calling the raise committed you to calling the turn.

It's hard for me to say what I would do because I honestly play to avoid spots like this. I would be more likely to bet bigger on the flop or check than to bet the amount you did. If I did bet $50 and got min-raised, there is a chance I would either fold or shove. If I did just call the flop raise, I would have called with the intention of snap-calling an expected turn shove unless I saw something weird. I can't tell you which I would do without knowing what kinds of hands this player has shown down earlier in the session.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-22-2018 , 05:35 AM
AP, turn is a snap call.

Pre: 3 bet more, I'd make it $55+.

Flop: Make it $75. A decent chunk of his range is medium pockets which call a large bet or big aces which fold.

As said above, his raise is your decision point since you are now committed if you call and can expect a turn shove. I think this is more likely to be TT->QQ than a hand that beats you and without reads I'm calling then shoving the turn if the villain doesn't.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-22-2018 , 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBeer
AP, turn is a snap call.

Pre: 3 bet more, I'd make it $55+.

Flop: Make it $75. A decent chunk of his range is medium pockets which call a large bet or big aces which fold.

As said above, his raise is your decision point since you are now committed if you call and can expect a turn shove. I think this is more likely to be TT->QQ than a hand that beats you and without reads I'm calling then shoving the turn if the villain doesn't.
I agree. If I'm villain, and hero only bet half pot on the flop, I'd put him on a big Ace, which might have been what villain put him on. OP, preflop I'd also 3 bet more, at least 4x. 3x is almost a min raise for some opponents. As mentioned, I'd also bet around 3/4's pot on the flop. If I get min raised on the flop and not much of a read on opponent, unless it's a really bad flop(like with an Ace), I'm shoving. Easier way to play it with higher bets pre flop and on the flop.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-22-2018 , 06:27 PM
Thanks for the input guys.

For sure the 3bet was too small. I pretty much caught that instantly. In the past I had 3 bet pots too large and this time I over-corrected guess.

I pretty much snapped it off, I checked my cards to make sure I did indeed have the Kh and called. River was 8c and V was hesitant to show, I then tabled my hand and it was good. The villain fumbled his cards around and I did see he had QQ, I didn't get the best look before the cards were scooped up but I'm pretty sure he had Qh.

Only real hand I think had me crushed in this spot would be AhAx. I did not give him much credit for that as he just flatted my raise preflop. I think its possible he could have had AQh or something, I feel like that hand was more likely than AhAx. Maybe sets but I would be able to draw on those hands.

I was indeed prepared to call a shove on this hand. I remember looking down at my chips as i grabbed my calling chips to his RR on the flop and thinking "i'm pretty much committed."

I feel like I was being perceived as pretty tight, when I called the All-in, the table captain spoke up and commented how "You woke him up" referring to me.
I find lots of limping in these local 1-2 games. I am pretty strict about not limping anymore so I can and will go several orbits without playing a hand. I also am pretty quiet at the table as well.

As for the homework. If my numbers are right i need to be good here 28% of the time to make this call?? 200call / (200call+300pot+200bet.) My remaining effective stack was around 200$ when V shoved.

Overall I felt pretty good about the hand, I have noticed I am starting to make more considerations while in the midst of a hand where before I often would not realize what happened until it was all over, I feel there is progress being made.

Thanks for the help.

Last edited by fi$h; 01-22-2018 at 06:33 PM.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-22-2018 , 09:25 PM
To give good advice in this situation we need to know more about the Villain and game.

But in general,

I think it is really important to put a bigger bet in on the flop. Around $80, this will help you put him on a hand easier. Ace-BigCard will fold and if they don't only an Ace hurts you. Over pairs lose unless they hit. If an Ace hits they will slow down with over pairs and are unlikely to have AK with your hole cards which will also slow them down. Also, if they call a bigger bet like $80 on a heart draw they are unprofitable in the long run, therefore profitable for you.

On the check raise, I shove. Any set would probably wait until the turn to raise you unless he puts you on a flush draw.

Knowing more about how people are playing and image helps to narrow these things down and helps us help you more.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-23-2018 , 12:55 AM
you gave him about 13 to one to outdraw you with your small raise. so you set up the hand to be in trouble making decisions. if you had bet more and got checked raised you could easily just move in here.
on the flop you bet too small again and gave him great odds to hit whatever he may have unless it was a smaller pair.
after his flop raise i would go all in or fold depending on the player but most times just go all in and gamble here. on the turn you are good way too often and can easily draw out.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-23-2018 , 08:02 AM
3bet to $65 preflop. As played, bet bigger on the flop so you can shove turn when called. As played, shove flop. Yes you're going to run into a few sets but when he has a draw he will always call and you're slightly ahead. When he has TT-QQ he is not folding either, but he might fold on bad turns.

Why he raised flop with QQ is a different matter, but given that live players do that when they feel they need to protect you can just shove over them.

By the way call the flop when stacks are deeper. As the SPR is only about 3 in this case, get it in. When you have $500+ behind, play it more careful. Check these flops sometimes as well with overpairs.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-23-2018 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Zee
you gave him about 13 to one to outdraw you with your small raise. so you set up the hand to be in trouble making decisions. if you had bet more and got checked raised you could easily just move in here.
on the flop you bet too small again and gave him great odds to hit whatever he may have unless it was a smaller pair.
after his flop raise i would go all in or fold depending on the player but most times just go all in and gamble here. on the turn you are good way too often and can easily draw out.
I'm a bit confused on your 13:1 number. He had to call 30$ with a pot size of 75$. My 50$ bet on the flop gave him 3:1, not exactly great drawing odds?
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-23-2018 , 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fi$h
I'm a bit confused on your 13:1 number. He had to call 30$ with a pot size of 75$. My 50$ bet on the flop gave him 3:1, not exactly great drawing odds?
Don't forget about the $300 in your stack! By flatting he is essentially set mining here at 13 to 1 if he figures to stack you ... not saying that's a wise decision on his part with QQ but it may be wise with TT/JJ if he sees you are strong here.

I would also go a touch bigger PF since some opening hand ranges will 'figure' that they have at least 25% equity (3 to 1) and you will also offer the CO a nice 4 to 1 to call with their predictably larger range.

The min raise is more typically 'the nuts' when live and they are setting up a shove on the next street ... or are more than willing to GII right now. So I really narrow a range when this happens, but I'm calling a shove all day with the Kh in my hand here. The fact that you've seen this 'tendency' before would let me feel more comfortable calling it off.

I agree that AhQh is more likely than AA but you're still crushed by both and sets so it really doesn't matter ..

Behind .. AQ/AJh, AA, sets
Ahead .. TT/JJ/QQ

You are already waist deep here with a potential redraw .. call. GL
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-23-2018 , 03:29 PM
Ok I failed to look at it from a set mining perspective. Makes more sense now. I am going to be more mindful of the 3bet sizes.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-23-2018 , 09:36 PM
good for you to come here and post this and also to listen to the experienced posters we have he re. good luck on yourpoker journey and keep learning and fall into the trap of using past results to forge your future playing.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-24-2018 , 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fi$h
Recent hand played at a local 1-2 NL game.

I am sitting on the button and find KsKh my stack is about 350$
MP raises to 15$, CO calls and I 3bet to 45$. SB tanks for a while and folds. MP raiser calls and CO folds. MP raiser started hand with roughly same stack size (around 370$)

Pot is 105$ and flop comes 6c5h9h

Villain checks, i C bet 50$. Villain min check raises to 100$. I quickly call.. pot is roughly 300$ and the turn is 3h. V shoves his remaining 225$.....

What do you do?? Results follow later...
V is not a familiar player to me, not much info, does limp into pots and have noticed tendency to make min re raises. Also noticed varying raise sizes preflop, ranging from 7-15$...
I really think the flop is a toss up between betting and checking behind. The problem is that this flop is going to connect with villain's open/flatting range a lot, whether it be in the form of suited connectors or pocket pairs. However, we do have the King of hearts so I really think it could go either way.

Call me a nit but I think I am checking this flop. I am not sure I want to commit myself quite yet. Let's peel off a turn card and reassess. As played when the third heart comes off I think we have to call. If the three completes villain's flush (which we block) then we're still probably drawing live.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-25-2018 , 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew

Homework for you: How often do I need to be good in order for this call to be +EV?
Approx 59%?
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-25-2018 , 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Percyeus86
Approx 59%?
Whenever you get a number >50%, something with your math went wrong.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-25-2018 , 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
Whenever you get a number >50%, something with your math went wrong.
Evidently.

Can you please explain it for me? TIA

Edit: Missed out villains bet. 28% approx.

Last edited by Percyeus86; 01-25-2018 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Re calculated.
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote
01-25-2018 , 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Percyeus86
Edit: Missed out villains bet. 28% approx.
Looks correct. Hero has $205 left to call into a pot of $305 + $205 = $510.

So we can get there by 205/(510+205) or by 1/(510/205+1)
KK faces c/r on flop and shove on turn. Quote

      
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