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Old 01-09-2018, 01:59 AM   #1
tucanroman
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ICM, and push/fold

Hello everyone. I want to start some serious study about this items. I have read a lot during my "poker life" and recently did some research but I find this topics material either too much "general" or "wtf"

WTF example: Jonattan little's push/fold chart says that in UTG with 15BB you should push 9.5% of hands. This sound suicidal to me. This includes QTs and A5s. I don't understand how to aply this. Do you realy push A5s from UTG? I would maybe do it in some Mtts middle time, but in a SNG its suicidal. At least in my stake ($1 micros). Or maybe I just wrong and being to thight. Is there some good reading about this?

ICM: I downloaded ICMIZER trial, I can't aford to buy it right now. Is there any free similar software? Some not too general reading about ICM? I don't want to undestand how to do the math mannualy right now, just undestand how it works and when it aplys.

I'm also playing STTs 9p regular with another BR, just started. Reading a lot about strategy but again, too much general. Play thight at first, steal blinds when its middle time, then ICM bubble play. Is there any big picture about these games??

Thanks a lot, anything you know about this will be a big help to me.
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:16 AM   #2
sixfour
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

The point of a push/fold chart (at least a good one that aims to be unexploitable, rather than what most new/bad players here want which is information to beat their game right now which becomes worthless in a few months) is that it's unexploitable - if the villains call too loosely your cards do well enough against their range(s) to be profitable, if the villains call too tightly you steal the blinds enough to counteract the times you are called and are behind their range(s).

It also likely takes into account ICM, not having read Little's book and not knowing the context, which you don't state, and in STT's it's perfectly possible to have spots where you've got an equal stack with someone and you can get it in first with ATC but he needs to fold everything other than aces
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:05 AM   #3
Shamway99
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

There are free tools, you could try to google simplenash, the free soft is close to paid ICMizer. Holdemresources also had a free nash calculator, do not know whether it is still alive.
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:36 AM   #4
Shamway99
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

To go into more details. The result like Push 9.5% on UTG comes from using ICM and Nash equilibrum. ICM model computes something like the "exchange rate chip to $". Then soft models ranges for all players, both pushing and calling/overcalling. The dif between softs is most how userfriendly they are and how deep they can go - e.g. some can manage minraise open not only push etc.

The ranges computed are equal or very similar, basicaly none soft makes big mistakes. If there are diferences in quality of ofered ranges they are negligible. The only problem is we have to analyse many hands to get feeling what is our range in particular ituation.

The interesting thing is the Nash range is correct and you cannot lose money using it. True it can happen that villain calls more often your A5s and then it looks a wrong push. Only remember that then he calls your strongest hands to often and gives back more than got by calling the A5s. Saying it to encourage you to use correct ranges even if you think the weakest hands are to loose. And ofc you can adjust to known opponents and play exploitive.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:29 AM   #5
tucanroman
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

I feel like this thing about push/fold is so deep and complex that I undertand 10%.

My feelings about this push with A5s or TQs with 15bb are: 15bb is such a big stack to risk with those hands in UTG. Next hand I'm at BB seat with "14" bb and I get a chance to push a raise with those exact same A5s TQs or worst with such a better % in my favour. Can you do this with 2 or 3 shorts in the middle of the table? Can you do this with maniacs at the BB-SB with big stacks?

I can't trust only my feeligs but I feel is often better to push TQs than Ax (low kicker) from those early possitions.

I also play $1 sits and $1,10 max Mtts. Do this works there same way as it may work at higher stakes?


Shamway99: you somehow mean GTO play? The problem with this is UTG, I can't figure how often villain would call because there are 8 villains almost everytime I am in that spot.

Yesterday I play my sesion with this on mind. I opened my push range a lot and I find this is somehow working because you get a lot ot folds or just some luck when you are behind sometimes, but A5s and TQs at UTG with 15bb still feels like hell to my nit heart lol

Anyway, I also feel that my 2 month break even happens because Im too nitty at push/fold situations. Especialy with 15-25bb stacks. I can survive very long with -10bb stack but I'm a chicken with 15+ bb
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:37 AM   #6
EvilGreebo
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

You're thinking about push/fold is a bit off.

It's not just about the strength of your hand - it's also about fold equity. When you have 15bb and you're opening the action, if you're going to play A5s then your choices are raise/fold when some big stack pushes back at you (exploitable) vs shove where the big stack can't apply any pressure.

Plus your hand does still have enough equity to be good at showdown should you get called.

You will find, however, that push/fold is less successful at low stakes where players can tend to be uberfish and call ATC w/ deep stacks cause "HEY I HAV CHIPS DURR I MUST CALL DURRR" and while those types frequently double you up they have a sad tendency to knock you out too.

Finally, who says you're going to get any better in the BB? With 15bb you don't have a lot of time left, and the blinds are going up. You have to apply urgency to your play. You can go many orbits w/o seeing another ace.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:37 AM   #7
Majestik
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfour View Post
The point of a push/fold chart (at least a good one that aims to be unexploitable, rather than what most new/bad players here want which is information to beat their game right now which becomes worthless in a few months) is that it's unexploitable - if the villains call too loosely your cards do well enough against their range(s) to be profitable, if the villains call too tightly you steal the blinds enough to counteract the times you are called and are behind their range(s).

It also likely takes into account ICM, not having read Little's book and not knowing the context, which you don't state, and in STT's it's perfectly possible to have spots where you've got an equal stack with someone and you can get it in first with ATC but he needs to fold everything other than aces
Exactly!
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:30 PM   #8
tucanroman
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

Thanks all for the answers!

When you say I must be pushing those hands not to be explotable, how do you understand that in math terms? I mean: where is the line that divides A5s from A4s? and how do you adapt it to villains?

That may be the key for me. Using just a chart is horrible, doing things because that's how it is and not undestanding what I am doing.

This also must be the reason why I "always" reach the FT with short stacks. It's seems to be more profitable to risk your tourney in some "not nitty push with 15/20bb" than waiting to have -10bb and shot with less FE. Is it?

Yesterday I also started to shot pushes with 15/22b.
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:52 PM   #9
Percyeus86
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by tucanroman View Post
Thanks all for the answers!

When you say I must be pushing those hands not to be explotable, how do you understand that in math terms? I mean: where is the line that divides A5s from A4s? and how do you adapt it to villains?

That may be the key for me. Using just a chart is horrible, doing things because that's how it is and not undestanding what I am doing.

This also must be the reason why I "always" reach the FT with short stacks. It's seems to be more profitable to risk your tourney in some "not nitty push with 15/20bb" than waiting to have -10bb and shot with less FE. Is it?

Yesterday I also started to shot pushes with 15/22b.
If you're not comfortable doing something or aren't sure why, then don't - keep learning and developing and always play situational to your table.

A5s is a good hand to shove with for a few reasons, and UTG for 15bb all adds up.

1. Our range is still tight (in our opponents view)
2. Fold equity.
3. A5s blocks a lot of hands that could call and dominate us i.e A6+.
4. We have good equity against a lot. Even against AKos we have about 30%. We're flipping vs 44 but only around 35% v 55, which gives our opponent one less pair to dominate us with (as opposed to shoving with A4s).
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Old 01-10-2018, 09:26 AM   #10
tucanroman
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

Thanks a lot guys. I tried this yesterdays sesion with good results. I will try to study it deep. I have a new "problem" now, push calling ranges :P but later, first I want to understand this deeper
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:10 AM   #11
answer20
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by tucanroman View Post
When you say I must be pushing those hands not to be explotable, how do you understand that in math terms? I mean: where is the line that divides A5s from A4s? and how do you adapt it to villains?

That may be the key for me. Using just a chart is horrible, doing things because that's how it is and not undestanding what I am doing.
Yes, sometimes it is hard to just trust a chart. I'm certainly not 'math guy' either. But I will point out two things ...

1) The charts are there for 'you' and the situation you are in. They remove all V influence. It simply indicates that these hands are 'probably' the best you're going to do and that the odds are that the remaining hands are weaker. You can't get pushed off your opening raise since you are all-in. So some of the 'poker' is now taken out of the hand. And remember that 'most' opponents call tighter than they shove. So you are pushing a 9.5% hand and hopefully now fading a 5% hand behind you.

2) When you shove from other than the blinds you add more chips to your stack than when you 'wait' and shove from the BB (v SB or more). You lose a lot of FE after a player already has chips in the pot. Perceptually you are shoving wider from the BB than UTG so that widens player's calling ranges which means you need to survive a showdown v just taking the pot down PF.

As you indicate, a 15bb stack is 'fine' but when you just open and reduce that stack (and introduce better pot odds to an opponent) you may end up seeing a Flop OOP multi-way ... and thus allow an opponent to call your shove more confidently since they've seen 3 cards cheaper. GL
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:42 AM   #12
Shamway99
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by tucanroman View Post
When you say I must be pushing those hands not to be explotable, how do you understand that in math terms? I mean: where is the line that divides A5s from A4s? and how do you adapt it to villains?

Yesterday I also started to shot pushes with 15/22b.
Exactly push with A5s was recommended by soft because it was more profitable than fold. Beeing unexploitable was not the reason.
The same with calling range, when ICMizer says e.g. call 55 on BB against UTG push it is because call brings more money than fold (against correct pushing range).

As for the pushing 22bb: All Nash calculators can evaluate whether push is better than fold. It is posible that they may be played by minraise better. Note that any push/fold chart only says "Push is better/worse than fold", it does not say "The hand must be pushed".

Last edited by Shamway99; 01-10-2018 at 11:45 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-15-2018, 09:53 AM   #13
tucanroman
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Re: ICM, and push/fold

Guys, thanks a lot to all. This realy made a diference in my playing results. I din't win a Mtt so far but I can live deeper and yesterdar for exaple I reached 3 180 persons FTs by not being a idiotic nitty fish. You helped me a lot on this trhead.
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