So this is a question for NL2. Looking over my database tonight and I noticed that I am -338.28 BB/100 in Multiway pots where I open raise. The sample size is 128 hands.

By position it is

EP - 24 Hands (-785.42)
MP - 32 Hands (-664.06)
CO - 47 Hands (-12.77)
BTN - 25 Hands (-104)

In the EP and MP I am currently open raising 4 BB. Should I maybe open up 10BB to try and lower the amount of multi way pots im in?

My general strategy here in these spots is only to c-bet when I connect with the board, because I realize that with it being multi-way if I didnt connect there is a good chance someone else did. In 31 hands I did C-bet in these spots and have a -845.16 bb/100.

So obviously this is a problem, and maybe this is normal, but its so hard to prevent because I am opening the action and I cant do anything about people calling my bets, especially playing so many loose fish who will call about anything.

Thanks in advance for the insight.

Can't tell exactly because we don't know what your average opening raise is, but if it's less than 3.3 big blinds, you would have been better off open folding on the flop every single time. (If your sample is strictly hands that you opened and others cold called, no 3bets)

128 spots isn't a big sample and there's no on size fits all approach anyway. Check your biggest winners and biggest losers and see what you could have done differently. Post hands here if you have questions.

Tiny sample. No sense trying to tell you what you're doing wrong. Instead, let's talk about what you can do right:

a) learn typical opponent folding frequencies.* for example:

no limit holdem cash game:

three limps, I raise on the button to 6 big blinds with KQs, blinds call, limpers all call. Sweet. I have a hand that flops a lot of strong combos:

K74r If it checks to me, I'm betting around 1/2 pot as default. I usually click the 1/2 pot button and bump it up a few clicks from there, depending on how bad my opponents are.

Let's talk about what happens in these situations:

I) small blind check raises to 1/2 pot.

II) blinds fold, limpers call

III) everyone calls.

at a later time, tourneys starting, but I'll just add that if I don't hit a similar flop, I'm checking back. I don't even bet straight or flush draws here. I need top pair to bet in a six way pot, and I never slowplay in this spot as default. Maybe just maybe if there's a maniac in the blinds, I'll slowplay there. Generally speaking though on the button, I'm betting for (value) exclusively in 6 way pots.

* forgot why I started this in the first place:

to figure out how often you can get folds, you multiply the folding frequencies together. So if I have two opponents that fold 25% of the time the action hits them, I multiply the frequencies:

(.25 * .25) = 0.0625 = 6.25% of the time they both will fold.

Or: if they fold 75% of the time:

(.75 * .75) = .5625 = 56.25% of the time they both will fold.

Now, can you see why I never bluff in 6 way pots?

Preflop isn't the problem. My guess is that you are overvaluing TP in MW pots. If you raise pf and a solid bet on the flop doesn't win the hand, your hand is in trouble.

MW Pots are interesting and so complex but there shouldn't be much of them in 100bb deep 6-max games tho haha?

Just be aware that there are players with ranges behind you so don't feel that you are losing EV in a certain spot because you are not defending correctly when OTF in a 100bb deep scenario for example.

You really have to visualize what villain's ccing ranges are going to look like when there is 1 player left to act behind them. And then depending on turn + river run outs make your decision accordingly.

I'm not a fan of 4bb opens, but that size can work if you're a nit.

As for playing multiway, you need to check(-fold) the flop extremely often, particularly if more than one player has position on you. A curious feature of multiway pots is that the first player to put money in the pot is effectively "donating" EV to everyone else, partly because he gives away information, allowing the players that act after him to make correct decisions at a high frequency (e.g. making easy folds for no loss at all when there's a c-bet and a raise in front of them, calling when they have the right pot odds to chase a draw).
Typically, your strategy should be to only bet nut hands and draws to the nuts when there are multiple opponents, but since those combos also work brilliantly as check-raises (and also help to protect your check-calling range), it's actually possible (or even best practice) to make money in multiway pots with an OOP c-bet percentage of zero.
When you're on the button, you should c-bet more or less as normal, but when you're OOP multiway, you'll generally do better by checking (almost) your entire range to see if someone else makes the "mistake" of betting hands that don't maximise EV by doing so.

If you c-bet hands like TPTK/overpair into 3 players, it rarely works out well (low equity hands fold, high equity hands including draws will call or raise). Check-calling is the best way to keep the pot to a size where you're more likely to win it. Too many people worry about giving free cards to draws, so they make a hefty bet, get two calls, and then the pot is huge on the turn, and they're committed to a hand that wins less often. You don't want to bloat the pot if you're gonna lose more often! If you're playing a multiway pot, you only want to play a big pot if you have the effective nuts, not one pair.
C-betting with air is even worse. In that case you're just firing money into the abyss, and since it's a multiway pot, the size of the pot is bigger, so the c-bet is bigger, so it's a bigger chunk of your stack going down the hole.

Teach yourself to check with mid-strength hands more often. Let villains reveal the strength of their hands instead of telegraphing the strength of yours. If you have something with showdown value like top pair, check-call and see if the draws get there. (Check-fold if they do and someone keeps betting). There's no need to bet yourself if that just makes it less likely you get to showdown.

Example spot that the vast majority of micro players get wrong.

UTG opens AA for 3bb, CO, BTN and BB call. Flop comes JT6tt. Nearly all beginners think "It's a wet flop. I should bet big to charge the draws and get value from Jx". But betting big in this spot is a blunder. AA should be a very clear check, and it's debatable whether you should c-bet anything at all.



Just consider when the villains have JJ or TT or 66 or JTs. The last thing you want to do is pile in loads of money drawing almost dead. If they have 88/77 or A5s they were never giving you any money, so c-betting has no purpose against those hands. If they have QJ, or KQ, they will likely put money in the pot anyway, but you need to be cautious in case the turn is an Ace, king, queen, jack, ten, nine, or six, all of which put many combos of 2prs, trips, straights, boats into your opponent's ranges. By check-calling you lose the minimum when you're way behind, but can get to showdown when villain bets once or twice, by check-folding (when there's a ton of action), you lose nothing at all. By betting, you allow your opponents to play perfectly, and often just build a pot that ends up as part of someone else's stack.

You need to recognise that you need to beat everyone, not just one player. Things like one pair go way down in value, especially if you're not in position and can't stab at it if nobody shows aggression. If you know a standard pot will be multi-handed, then adapt your ranges to stuff that can build sets and made hands rather than TPGK

Out of curiosity, have you ever done the math to find out how far off villains ranges have to be to make bet > call in that spot?

I don't trust snowie, also i don't think there is any such program that does EV calcs OTF in MW Pots so gl with finding out the precise math at this point i'm guessing you can only do ur best to assume if decisions will be +EV

McFly, the theory you lay down makes alot of sense to me. Thanks for the effort in your post.

The maths is way too complicated for my tiny brain. I would guess that betting might have a higher EV than checking when the opponents are terrible at poker (e.g. calling way too often pre-flop and post). Against somewhat reasonable players, however, it's just "obvious" that you can't go for three streets of value in such a spot, and starting with a check would be the easiest way to play it. With AA with a diamond, it might be OK to c-bet small at some frequency (KQdd and AK with a diamond would also make sense as bets) but I don't think there is any combo that is a "must bet" in such a spot, especially for a large size. I would check my entire range whether villains are regs or whales, just to simplify the game tree and not get into hideous spots where I have no idea what to do on the turn/river.

Clearly the texture of the flop matters a lot. With a flop of K72 rainbow you'd play it differently I am sure.

I would have to really think about this one.
1ST of all the pre flop raise was way to small for rockets.
If you check the flop here you are giving all kind of draws potential free cards.
On the turn you have to give great pause to any diamond as well as any 9, 10, J, Q OR K. With That said there are only really 2 cards on the turn that help you. And you do hold broadway blockers.
While a check isn't the worst play a c bet that causes the button to fold now gives you position.
Personally I would c bet a pot size bet and fold to any MAJOR pre turn aggression .

Yes. AA is much more "robust" on K72r, since it's not only likely to be the best hand on the flop, but it's also very likely to still be the best hand on the turn, so it makes much more sense as a value-bet.
On the boards where it's less likely you have the best hand when you bet big and get called, and where the turn card is often going to change the relative strength of various combos massively, then the last thing you want to do is bloat the pot OOP.
Most players have completely the wrong idea about how to play OOP and multiway. They think "I should bet big on wet boards". On boards where you're likely to get action, but you don't have a very strong hand or strong draw, you should actually bet small or not at all. The c-betting range should be with hands that expect to be able to bet all three streets and get called by worse, or that have so much equity (e.g. a combo draw) that they don't mind playing for stacks. On K72, AA can get three streets from hands like KQ, and doesn't have to worry much about something like QT or 98s making a weird backdoor flush or straight. On JT6dd, black aces hate more than half the deck on the turn (literally every card higher than a five completes straights, trips, or two pairs, and all diamonds make flushes). You don't want to bloat the pot OOP if you're gonna hate most runouts. You want to check-call to see how things develop.

Arty nailed it.

I think the desire to deny equity realization results in misplaced aggression in most cases. I think betting to deny equity realization is the exception rather than the rule.

This is why I need good reads to make such a bet. This line of Arty's post:

Is particularly apt. So many times I've seen bad bets and I know exactly that the bettor wanted to deny equity. What they forgot to consider before making such a bet was that it's gonna suck when they get action.

Forgive me for being picky when you've been so kind, but denying free equity is a very important part of poker. It's just that in multiway pots, it's really hard to get everyone to fold. In heads up pots, a single bet will often make someone give up 40% equity and give you 100% of the pot. In a multiway pot, you seldom have more than 50% equity to begin with, and it's a forlorn hope that you'll make everyone give up on their share of the pot.

Another way to think about multiway pots post-flop is to think about pre-flop play. Everyone knows that you should open with a tight range UTG, because when you do you're effectively saying "I have a hand that can beat everyone at the table". When you're the first player to bet into a multiway pot post-flop, you're saying the same thing... so you'd better have a hand that will often do just that: Beat everyone. One pair is rarely good enough to beat more than one player, so you need to be quite cautious, especially on the boards where you're likely to still be multiway on the turn.

Brag: I once check-folded AA on a 6-high flop at 5NL. I think Brokenstars showed a hand where he did something similar in his PGC. Check-folding a big overpair looks crazy to a beginner, but AA is really not very strong OOP in a 3-way or 4-way pot. If it's not going to get to a cheap showdown, it's often best to cut your losses at the earliest opportunity. Betting flop and then check-folding many turns is obviously more costly than check-folding immediately.

I didn't mean to imply otherwise. What I mean is that it's a very misapplied concept, particularly with big bets in multiway pots with relatively weak hands on boards that allow the field to hold many strong hands.

Speaking of check-folding overpairs, if the hand I described above proceeds with hero checking UTG, CO betting half pot, BTN calling and BB folding, UTG should check-fold aces.



It's extremely marginal (calling only loses 0.13bb, according to Snowie), and it's fine to call if your opponents are really terrible (e.g. CO and BTN's ranges are much wider than they should be, and they will make more mistakes on later streets), but against good players, you're better off folding immediately. You'd be much more inclined to continue (EV of about +2bb) if the BTN takes a stab (he has the most bluffs in his range) and you expect the CO to fold (i.e. you'll be heads up on the turn). If you call when it's 3-way, what turn cards are you really happy to see? You're just hoping that it checks through and your aces somehow hold up on blank rivers too.

can u make this sticky or archive it like a COTW?

@OP don't RFI for 10bb lol.

Double-brag: c/f KK on 456r multiway as pfr with bet and call. Bettor had two pair and caller flopped the nuts, turn was a K (and I wouldn't have boated). I told the guy to my right what I folded and he was in complete shock.

Nobody ever tells me what they folded.

I feel like I am missing out on the "free information assistance program".

Why would anyone share their holdings when they don't have to?

Submerge our ego, grasshopper, "be water", but why help our opponents get better reads on us?

Wow. Awesome conversation. With how often we face multiway pots this definitely needs to be pinned in BQ.